Engine rattle on start-up

[RogSP]

Hi. I am new to the forum, but would very much appreciate your view on a concern I have with engine start-up from cold.
I have an SE 1.2 TSI purchased new at the end of 2015. I’m very pleased with the car and performance, but there is a rattle for perhaps a second or so when the engine is started. This quickly disappears when oil pressure is achieved, but I am concerned about engine wear over a period of time. Is this a normal characteristic of the engine due to a drop in oil pressure overnight? I did mention it during the first service, but they didn’t feel it was a concern.
I would appreciate your thoughts.

[skymera]

It's still in warranty? I'd be straight back to VW and harassing them to look into it.

For what it's worth, I took my car to VW over a squeaky pedal.

I've also known people to have warranty work to replace worn gearknobs.

[chrispy.]

Take it back to them for investigation. Get them to check your timing chain and tensioners while they are head first in your engine bay.


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[SRGTD]

Take it back to them for investigation. Get them to check your timing chain and tensioners while they are head first in your engine bay.


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I thought the 1.2 TSI engine in the Polo 6c had a cam belt, not a cam chain?

[chrispy.]

Unsure if I am honest.


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[joe6]

Early 1.2 TSI was chain driven, later ones (6c) belt driven.

[derkie54]

Fairly normal for a car that's been standing overnight to rattle for a few seconds when you start the engine. As soon as the oil circulates around the engine the noise will stop.
A lot of my cars have done this..... I don't worry about it.

[Jay-Jay]

Take your car to a VW workshop asap to check if your car is subject to the recall action for the variable timing gear.
Many exemplars of 1.2 TSI EA211 belt driven engines of 2014-2015 production mount a defective variable timing gear which causes the rattle at cold start-up and could also potentially make the engine go out of timing and destroy itself.

If you search on YouTube for "start-up rattle 1.2 TSI EA211 or 1.6 MPI EA211" you can find many videos of the rattle sound.

Inviato dal mio MHA-L09

[RogSP]

Thank you all for your comments, much appreciated.
I have booked the car in for a check-up later this month, so will let you know the outcome.

[RUM4MO]

Take your car to a VW workshop asap to check if your car is subject to the recall action for the variable timing gear.
Many exemplars of 1.2 TSI EA211 belt driven engines of 2014-2015 production mount a defective variable timing gear which causes the rattle at cold start-up and could also potentially make the engine go out of timing and destroy itself.

If you search on YouTube for "start-up rattle 1.2 TSI EA211 or 1.6 MPI EA211" you can find many videos of the rattle sound.

Inviato dal mio MHA-L09

I understand that you are giving good advice, but that variable timing pulley issue should not have reappeared in a 2015 built engine, I checked the engine in my wife's late July 2015 built Polo 1.2TSI 110PS SEL, and its pulley did not look like the early pulleys or the interim replacement one, but none of us can say that this problem has not reappeared. That car also makes a bit of noise for the first few seconds from a cold start, which it did not do when new back in August 2015 and now at 15K miles. I can't understand why engine makers can not include an electric oil pump to get the oil pressure up prior to starting the engine, I know that that would add to costs and maybe ultimate reliability, but it would stop us handing these cars in because of these noises, my February 2011 Audi S4 does not make any noises starting from cold even if left unused for a month or so - but that car delays starting until the fuel rail has time to get primed up to the correct fuel pressure - and maybe the oil is a lot closer to running pressure as well by the time the engine fires up. Maybe VW need to add that delay into cars with these engines - but only for initial starts, that would not work for stop/start!

[RogSP]

Just an update following a service booking at my local VW dealership.
Well the car was left overnight at VW and I was asked to be there in the morning when the car was started with me and the Technician present. The “rattle” was there on start, following which the technician referred me to the handbook, where under the index Engine/noises it refers you to page 151 which states:
“When starting from cold, the engine may be a little noisy for the first few seconds. This is quite normal, an no cause for concern”
So as far as they are concerned, that is that, and there is no point in stripping, inspecting and rebuilding as it would just be the same. I also had the impression this was a regular concern/enquiry, although I would like to know the exact cause rather than it’s just a normal characteristic and referring me to the handbook.
I did ask it the rattle would get worse over a period of time, and the reply was it was a fairly new engine, so that was unknown at this stage. My view is if the rattle is due to a lack of oil which is corrected when pressure is reached, then the rattle, (being a result of unlubricated contact) will certainly result in wear and increased noise over a period of time, but I just received a shrug of shoulders and advice to take out an extended warrantee cover.
So not a satisfactory conclusion in my opinion, just an uncertain future.

[RUM4MO]

I agree with you entirely, modern engines could and should be built to sound smooth, most manufacturers can achieve that - so why can't VWG do it?

I'm not sure if it was on this forum or another VWG marque forum - ie Skoda or SEAT, but someone posted describing these engines as sounding like a sewing machine, now in the past, if someone described the sound their engine made was "like a sewing machine" they would have meant it was so smooth running. Now, when that term is used, it refers to all the silly noises that these engines make - is that progress, does a "bomb proof" extended warranty negate the need to supply properly designed engines and other major parts? I don't think so.

Edit:- I remember the point in my motoring "career" when I finally discovered that Ford had started producing engines that would end up in the bin at lowish mileages, maybe they have improved as VWG have slid down a very steep slippery slope.

[vuzamanzi]

Thought I'd join to give an update despite not even having a Polo... my experience is eerily similar with a 2014 Seat Leon 1.2 TSI at 55000 km, which is 34375 miles to you. Thanks to info on this forum, it seems it has an early belt drive EA211. This is a brilliant motor, perfectly capable of pulling a 1250kg car, even as a fully laden station wagon. This is a Czech car imported into Germany, but ultimately that is irrelevant, the engines are all made in the same place.

As far as I can tell, Seat has no knowledge of any of the recalls mentioned here.

The engine has always sounded tappetty at idle, but in fact that is probably the injectors. On startup it sounds like it hasn't run for six months, until some oil gets into the tappet covers. You get used to it, but you need to pay attention if it changes!

Recently it got louder. It was most noticeable at idle, and there was occasionally a soft knocking at low speeds audible even from inside the car. It wasn't consistent. Then on the EPC lamp came on. Then it went off. The Start-Stop switched itself off. I assumed the knocking sound was the injectors on a default 'distress' mapping. Boy, was I wrong.

The EPC light was now on permanently but there was no noticeable loss of power and no change in fuel consumption. The next day I drove it in to a main dealer who told me in no uncertain terms I was close to a terminal engine failure. They replaced the inlet cam variable timing actuator and the cam belt. They told me they had never seen this fault before. Seat paid for the valve work and parts after the dealer hassled them twice. Which was nice.

I surmise that the actuator, or its bolts, was working loose or was falling apart. As described vividly elsewhere, that could lead to a situation where the cam just stops, which could mean new pistons, valves, and head.

So, if you hear strange noises from the top of your EA211, get it looked at, and preferably by a Seat dealer!

[RUM4MO]

Good advice, yes all these engines seem to have been built in a Czech Skoda engine plant.

I carry out all my own car servicing now that my wife's 2015 Polo 1.2TSI 110PS is outside its warranty period, and I make a habit of removing the top cover from the cambelt area of the engine, checking mainly for evidence of oil escaping as well as making sure the variable timing pulley on the inlet side's securing bolts "look okay".

I believe that some oil will start to escape before the pulley is loose enough to cause trouble - but I think and hope that these problems only affected very early build EA211 engines.

Just a pity that VW Group were not honest enough to check all cars within that early engine build range either at point of sale or, early recall or the first time they appeared for workshop servicing, this could have been caught before things went bad - but time and again VW Group has proved that it is not fit to be viewed as a Germanic manufacturer - or German's quality and integrity standards have dropped into the gutter and it is living on its past good name, which is a pity as Germany like UK used to get trusted when it comes to designing and building credible products.

[joe6]

Just a pity that VW Group were not honest enough to check all cars within that early engine build range either at point of sale or, early recall or the first time they appeared for workshop servicing, this could have been caught before things went bad - but time and again VW Group has proved that it is not fit to be viewed as a Germanic manufacturer - or German's quality and integrity standards have dropped into the gutter and it is living on its past good name, which is a pity as Germany like UK used to get trusted when it comes to designing and building credible products.

That seems to be the message now. As I have said elsewhere, I would not buy a VAG car model/engine that has not been manufactured for 3 years so that someone else has the hassle of sorting out and reporting what needs re-engineering to give it longevity. Never had these problems with Vauxhall or Ford in the past (35 years of ownerships) but not sure what the present situation is though?