Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

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veteran
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Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by veteran »

Does anyone here know whose gear oil Volkswagen uses in the 5-spd manual boxes fitted on their 2014 - 2017 Polo 1.2 TSI's? Fuchs, perhaps? Febi? Castrol? And would it be GL-4 75W-90? I'll be changing mine in due course. Because VW never expects this oil to be changed, there's no info on it given in the Driver's Manual or elsewhere.

There have been rumours flying around that: (a) VW now puts less gear oil in the box than hitherto (to a level some inches below the fill plug, rather than up to the plug), and (b) VW uses a thinner oil than before. Do these rumours have any basis?

Incidentally, on my gearbox there appears to be two filler plugs - one on the nearside toward the rear of the box, and another smaller one adjacent to the differential output/driveshaft connection on the driver's side.
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by RUM4MO »

I'd be guessing that the large hex plug on the RHS is the fill/level point.

One other thing in respect to what you found with your engine oil level, ie you found that it was too high, if I remember correctly VW Group are a bit strange in how they specify how to check your oil level, I think that it mentions a period of time after stopping the engine, as that period is quite short, that could explain why you found your oil level was a bit high initially. Some of the older engines had crazy dip tube lengths and if you dipped the engine oil 2 hours after stopping the engine and found it was okay, if you dipped it again 12 hours later it would have risen an inch or so further up the dip stick! If you then removed and cleaned the dip stick, waited maybe 15 minutes, the level would be okay. Now a lot of that just makes people say "don't you now how to check oil level?" - but if you have come from a motoring past where the indicated dip stick level after the car had not been run for maybe 2 days would always be a true reading without needing to "removing the dip stick cleaning and sticking back" - you might need to revise how you carry out this pitifully simple task - I did when I first made contact with a 2002 1.4 16V Polo, and the same thing with the late 2009 1.4 16V Ibiza which follows as these engines are almost identical the later one being an evolution of the earlier one. My old 2000 Passat, my current 2011 S4 and my wife's 2015 1.2TSI Polo are not like that, though I will repeat "read what the handbook says with respect to checking oil level" as using old fashioned common sense could give the wrong level for how that engine was filled at the factory and dealership - stupid but maybe true.
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by veteran »

" ............ that the large hex plug on the RHS is the fill/level point".

The RHS? That's technically the driver's side (here in the UK). Do you really mean the RHS? Sure (as I've stated), there's a small plug adjacent to the diff output on the driver's side, but there's a bigger one on the lefthand side of the gearbox, near its rear end.

Let's not get confused between gear oil and engine oil here. But just to set the records straight, yes, I have made it known that I found the oil level in the engine too high and had to drain some out. I spent many days checking that level before taking that action, carefully measuring and re-measuring using the dipstick. In each case, it was done on level ground and long after the engine had been turned off. Indeed, I followed the method described in the Driver's Manual supplied with the vehicle.
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by iichel »

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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by RUM4MO »

I think that it is always best to forget about RHD/LHD differences and concentrate on using "RHS" or "LHS" which is as viewed from the driver's seat looking forward.

VW Group will always use that way of describing things and you will find that every time the LHS component has a lower numerically least significant digit p/n associated with it that than the RHS equivalent part.

Obviously in certain situations there is a need to qualify if the car is RHD or LHD though, but not here.

Veteran:- while trying to keep you right wrt correctly assessing the engine oil level in the sump via the dip stick, I must confess on that not having read that section very well in my wife's 2015 Polo handbook - I'm more following "educational advice" being handed out on other VW Group forums as many people seem to have the same difficulty with oil level measuring and some/most of it is blamed on poor translation by VW Group, or by not following the car's handbook too the letter, how such a simple job can be so hard to carry out beats me, but as I said some VW Group engines, mainly the port injection 1.4 16V 4 cylinder and 1.2 ?V 3 cylinder changed how/where common sense is used, hopefully with these newer engines we are back with old school or common sense being okay!

Edit:- I think that the workshop diagrams shown above are showing the RHS of the gearbox as you can see the location of the dogs leg rear mounting - someone correct me if I'm wrong please.

Another Edit:- I'll have another look this week as I need to change the wheels/tyres from Summer to Winter ones!
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by veteran »

iichel,

Re the engineering drawing, yes if my memory serves me well enough from about three weeks ago when I was last under the car, that's the smaller one to which I've referred. It's on the driver's side (ie. on the so-called RHS, here in the UK). But there's another, bigger one on the LHS of the transmission housing, so what's that all about? There's a third and small plug on the underside of the transmission housing, and I presume that one to be for draining.

I'm fairly sure I saw either photographs or sketches in one of my workshop manuals for the older Polos and Golf and these I think suggested that the position of the filler plug depended on the particular gearbox fitted. But I can't seem to find those photos/sketches right at the moment. So, on the 2014 - 17 Polos, the position of the plug might be different, depending on whether it's a gearbox fitted to a 1.4 litre engine or whether fitted to a 1.2 engine, or whatever. Therefore, are you 100% certain that the engineering drawing in the pcture you've supplied refers specifically to the 5-spd box as fitted to the 1.2 90PS engine? It's a vital point to get right, because I'm fairly sure that the bigger plug, on the LHS of the gearbox, sits lower than the one in your drawing. If you get it wrong, you either end up putting in too much oil (which will then probably blow past various internal seals), or you put in too little, with perhaps catastrophic consequences.
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by RUM4MO »

veteran, I know the previous posting was not directed at me, but, I've just checked up this in the Haynes manual for the 6R Polo with a 5MT, and it claims, like you said, that the fill/level plug is on the LHS of the gearbox - obviously the plug on the bottom is the drain plug.

I was using my memory of what I had seen on the 6MT gearbox on my wife's car - and maybe beefing that up with what I've remembered from older VW gearboxes which did tend to have the fill/level plug adjacent to an output drive shaft.
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by iichel »

That's all the information I could find in ELSA, I hope it's useful but I'm not so familiar with the Polo 6C and its mechanics, sorry.
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by alexperkins »

use genuine VW gearbox oil. Its superior to pretty much anything else on the market.
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by veteran »

Genuine VW gearbox oil? But what's that? Volkswagen are not an oil manufacturer, as far as I know. So whose gear oil do they actually use? I've heard rumours that it's Fuchs's, but rumours are rumours. There'd be nothing magical about, or additional to, the gear oil they use, though they probably have an influence on its specification when they team up with one or more oil manufacturers. As far as I'm aware, once it's manufactured, oil manufacturers don't tweak a given oil to suit individual car manufacturers - until of course the specification gets revised for that particular oil.

Yes, I'd love to be able to walk into a VW dealer's and order some 'genuine VW gearbox oil', as you put it, but I'd probably get the thumbscrews and third-degree treatment from the dealership. I'm changing this oil within the warranty period, remember (the underlying reasons for which can be explained later, if necessary). On top of that - and this assumes that they agree to sell me some in the first place - they'd probably charge me way over the top for it. There's no fixed price for spares and consumables; franchises can charge what they like.
Last edited by veteran on Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by veteran »

RUM4MO,

Yes, not only might the filler-plug position depend on whether it's a 1.2 or 1.4 engine to which the gearbox is coupled but also on whether they're 5-spd or 6-spd. I've a sneeky feeling that it's the 6-spd box where the filler's on the RHS, adjacent to the output shaft.

Since I've observed apparently two filler plugs on the gearbox, the larger one being on the LHS of the gearbox casing, it begs the question as to the functionality of the one adjacent to the output shaft. Are we to conclude that the RHS plug opens into a separate chamber inside the gearbox, with its own internal seals, ie. are the diff/output shaft flanges served by a separate supply of gear oil?
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by RUM4MO »

I'd be very confidant that the "transaxle" assembly will have only a single oil system. Have you checked up on the parts listing as I find that it normally improves your idea of what is where and what for.
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by RUM4MO »

Ah well, that "bright" idea did not get me any further as there is an M24 X1.5 plug on both sides of the transaxle - called sealing plugs! They are both the same part number though, so should look identical.

Edit:- no sign of a drain plug on these gearboxes I was looking at.

Another Edit:- one thing about buying "stuff" from a VW dealership, even oils for a new car, they might ask questions, but they will only be doing that to clarify to you that you don't really need it and to give you the right "stuff", none of that conversation will go any further as selling parts to you is money in the bank for them.
Last edited by RUM4MO on Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by alexperkins »

It is a single oil system thats correct

yes, VW do not make the oil, but the VW oil has certain additives in it that makes it quite unique. It has been made by a variety of manufacturers over the years. They tend to switch between castrol, fuchs and mobil depending on the year. In my TT i have Febi gearbox oil, which is identical in look (and smell - the VW gearbox oil has a strange smell) and meets all the requirements and specs.

As for changing your oil during the warranty period, there is no dispute that you must use VW gearbox oil. If you went in and said hello mr parts man, id like gearbox oil for my car - heres my reg, theyll sell you the appropriate product.

Whats your reg? Ill find the part number and price.
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Re: Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

Post by veteran »

alexperkins,

What additives? The only additive that I've ever heard of in the context of VW is a dye, that being presumably to detect if the owner ever changes the gearbox oil. Unless you've inside knowledge of the gear oil that VW uses, my guess is that no special additives - let's say, molybdenum-based additive - would be added by VW on top of what their supplier would give them. I mean, if what you say is the case (and part of this enquiry is to try to discover if it is), then all the gear oils sold by Febi, Fuchs, Comma, Mobil, Castrol, etc are unsuitable for the Polos concerned and all Polo owners should be officially and accordingly informed.
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