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Gathering the bits around me to do a brake fluid change (I'll be asking more questions about bleed order/bleeder later )
As usual VW has their own spec for brake fluid 501 14. I assume as it's DOT4 compliant, so long as I stick with DOT4 I'll be absolutely fine? ECP have PAGID on offer at just over £6 a litre this morning. Will that do the trick? Unless anyone has any recommendations that are better?
I've just done my first Polo brake fluid change, so am offering here some additional help points. In my case, a change was done not so much because it needed it but more in the course of me trying to track down a brake/clutch noise that's been bugging me for months (still remaining unsolved, as it happens). What came out of my clutch slave cylinder when I bled it some weeks ago was decidely dirty and I needed to see whether the rest of the system was the same. As it transpired, it wasn't; the brake system fluid was still quite clean.
Although in the past I've used the sort of simple one-way valve depicted in ciclo's pic at top-right, I invested in the 3-litre version of the LaserTools pressure bleeder (Laser 5642). I think the device shown in the centre is the Laser 2-litre pressure bleeder. The standard european reservoir adaptor supplied with it properly fits the lid of the Polo's reservoir, as does the one in the pic. That metallic thing on the end of the bleeder outlet tube is a springloaded one-way valve; when pushed on to the adaptor it allows free flow.
Yes, VW recommend their own fluid, which they call type 501-14, and it looks as though that's what's shown also in ciclo's pic. However, when I attempted to buy some from my local VW dealership I was told that they neither stocked it nor were they prepared to order any in for me. The story was the same from an alternative VW Dealer. I was told to go to any Audi dealer instead, where stocking it is normal. Unfortunately, for one reason or another I couldn't get to any of the Audi places within range of me, so I had to look elsewhere for a source of suitable equivalent fluid. My Driver's Manual actually states that if 501-14 cannot be obtained from a VW dealer, then any DOT4 complying with DIN ISO 4925 Class4 or US FMVSS 116 DOT4 can be used. After much investigation, I found that in the Parts Lists for the latest Polos on the nemiga website, Febi DOT4 Plus fluid (product 23930) is listed as the 'analog' of 501-14. I suspect that the only difference between VW's p/no. B 000 750 M3 and Febi's 23930 is that 23930 has yet to be given the final approval by VW to include the 501-14 number on the Febi label.
You can get Febi 23930, in various sizes, online. Amazon's current price for it is £9.48 per litre, but if you also have to pay delivery on the Amazon order, the net cost could be somewhere around £13 - £14. If you're doing a complete change of fluid, you'll need 2 litres of new fluid.
Now, I'm not sure whether the non-selling of 501-14 by the VW franchises in the UK is a regional thing or not - my local dealerships may have just decided to be bloodyminded about it - but I do know that at least one other UK forum member has not had the same negative experiences with his own purchases of it that I had. So, if your own VW dealer refuses to sell you any, try an Audi place instead or, failing that, buy the Febi product. Me? Well, I've just used the Febi 23930 DOT4 Plus and it's fine. Same pee-yellow tint as 501-14. Either way, you'll be spending £9 - £14 per litre. It might be that certain VW dealerships in the UK are phasing out the supplying to customers of B 000 750 M3. Other places where you might get it is at VW Van dealerships. If buying the fluid online, do so from known reliable suppliers, as there could well be fake versions on sale.
In the manual it states so long as it conforms to FMVSS 116 DOT4, or DIN ISO 4925 it is acceptable. (with the caveat that it may not meet 501-14) I'm not overly concerned about hunting down genuine VW 501-14. It's probably sourced from an OEM and rebadged anyway rather than being a magically superior product than justifies VW part dept prices.
I bit the bullet this morning anyways, and picked up 2l of Ate DOT4.SL6. Which complies to (FMVSS no. 116 – DOT 4, SAE J1704 and ISO 4925, class 6) I checked the date and it should be good if unopened until 2024. (That should give me plenty of time to think about it! LOL)
You just have to wonder what VW are actually using if they don't carry it on the shelf and won't order it in??
It's many, many years since I actually had the need to bleed the brakes myself. Back then I used the tried and trusted method of buying a mate a pint to pump the pedal. This time round I'm tempted by one of the vacuum type bleeders. This one caught my eye.
My reasoning being that with it being vacuum, I could use it at both ends. First to drain the reservoir and add fresh fluid, then the caliper end to draw the fluid. It just looks to be more controlled. With the pressure systems once the pressure is set that's it. Also they constantly add fresh fluid and I imagine as you finish the reservoir is full to the brim. That said, I'll be interested to see what adventures you guys have.
I have some traditional cooking tools for removing the old fluid in the reservoir down to the level of the screen filter, ie turkey basters, cheap and easy to wash and dry ready for next time, I even have one with a smaller metal end and these types of things can be used to blow dirt out of areas prior to removing “things”. As per usual, I’m afraid that I do have a Mityvac kit, I tried using it once and I think that I was getting annoyed by the capacity of its receiving container, so it needed emptying frequently, VW Group suggest 0.2ltr out of each front brake and 0.3ltr out of each rear brake. I tend to aim for nearer 0.6 out of the first rear brake followed by 0.4ltr out of the other then 0.2ltr out of each front brake, always worked for me, I use a graduated bottle to collect waste fluid, not to be able to measure what I’ve removed, but handy for that, but mainly as I acquired one and drilled 2 holes in its screw on top so the incoming fluid pipe is always below the fluid surface and the other pipe is a vent to atmosphere, also it is heavy enough to stay out of trouble, ie stay upright when I’m slackening and tightening the bleed valves. Saves me raging about fluid getting onto the garage floor. I always use Gunson Esibleed type of pressure bleeders “powered” by a garden pressure sprayer modified for that purpose and maybe, when used along with another one, to spray Waxoyl!
Edit:- when using the pressure bleeder, you normally need to refil it once or more, so I make sure that I end the fluid change with an empty container so if anything I will need to add a spot of fluid to the reservoir, or use a second dry turkey batter to remove fluid.
Cheers, That's a good bit of information. It's always better to hear from someone who's done battle with these things first hand. A Gunson Eezibleed, was the first brake bleeding gizmo that came to mind. The fancy pressure bleeders that ciclo has, look OK, but just run a little too expensive to be taken out of the box every couple of years. My local motor factors has Eezibleed clones on the shelf for £16.
Thank you very much for telling us your experiences and data, they are very useful for me.
I bought the bleeding pump and the 2 liters of brake fluid on eBay. The links to the purchase are no longer active, there are other similar ones.
I tested the bleeding pump by pumping the actuator and my finger into the outlet hole ... the manometer, relief valve, and everything else seems to work properly.
I saw a video on youtube (made in UK) with these tools in a VW car, perfectly explained, and I liked it so much that I decided that I would do it in the same way, + the ElsaWIN info.
Now I am not able to find the video ... haha
Here's a YouTube Video. It's using a pressure bleeder like yours, on a Golf. It's a basic fluid swap with no additional information regarding energising the ABS pump. I've not yet looked for the correct method via ErWin, etc.
Let me clarify a few things for you. First, VW dealer workshops in the UK buy in and use for themselves 50-gallon drums of 501-14. Or at least, that's what I was told by the local dealer's spares dept guy. That's how they manage to service vehicles brought to them.
The pressure bleeder devices - at least the Laser ones and similar - don't use a vacuum, they use a volume of air that you compress. It's that that presses down on the fluid you put into the device's tank and which forces the fluid into your fluid reservoir on the car and thence into the entire braking system. Primarily for that reason, you have to ensure that all connections are airtight. Cheap pressure bleeders, often copies of good designs and imported from China, can be notorious for air leaks. The meters incorporated into these both good-quality and not-so-good-quality bleeders show you the pressure level you use, but note that at any stage during the fluid change you can further pump the device to regain your original pressure level. As fluid exits from the device's tank, the pressure in the tank naturally drops. Hence, every so often you should re-pump the tank to keep it at the preferred pressure (normally, no more than 15 psi).
I had similar fears over the Polo's reservoir being full to the brim when removing the adaptor for it at the end of the whole exercise, but it simply didn't work out like that. Instead, the action of releasing the pressure left in the tank (as instructed), when you've finished, withdraws the excess fluid in the tubing and in the top of the resevoir back into the tank, leaving just the right amount of fluid in the reservoir. It's all rather clever.
Having now used a Laser 5642, I'd say that a key piece of advice that's lacking from the instructions is that you need to prevent the initial air column in the exit tubing from being pushed into the car's system as you proceed. Otherwise a lot of it you'll have to bleed out, along with the old fluid, and that could potentially take a long time and a lot of new fluid! In order to limit the amount of air that's initially trapped in the tubing what you need to do before starting the pump-up proper is to fit the adaptor on to the metallic valve and then hold it over the reservoir's opening as you gently work the pump, in order to expel that air and replace it almost fully with the fluid. Then at the last moment you screw the adaptor, with valve still attached, on to the reservoir. It's possible to do that because the valve-to-adaptor connection is rotatable whilst remaining airtight. Well, at least that's the case with the Laser 5642. This technique should ensure that the minimum of air gets pushed into the system.
Having now had experience with the Laser 5642, I still prefer the manual, non-pressurised method of old, pouring the fluid into the car's reservoir using a tiny funnel, and the use of a spring-loaded one-way valve at the nipple, as per ciclo's top-right of pic. The right foot then pumps the pedal. For each final stroke, you could wedge a piece of wood between the pedal and the front of the seat. If a willing partner or friend is to hand however, that's even better! Note that with pressure bleeders, you don't have to go anywhere near the brake pedal. I think the old-fashioned method of manual filling/topping up and using a one-way valve at the nipple is a far gentler method, has fewer things to go wrong, is very much cheaper, and unless you do the wrong things at the pedal, draws in much less air.
Yeh, those YouTube videos, I've watched them all. Some give better advice than others.
My extra tip: have a conventional rubber washer for a small British sink-tap to hand, as without fitting one as an extra washer in the 5642's outlet connection I couldn't get an airtight fit there. Perhaps my 5642 was missing an additional washer right there? Do up the connection carefully with some mole grips. Make sure that all connections are good seals, as otherwise you'll get fluid spurting out everywhere (not that I did - do a dummy run for pressure without any fluid in the tank, before you proceed with the job. If you see the pressure dropping, you've got an air leak somewhere).
As I understand it, the term "Pressure bleeders" refers to both pressure fed similar to the Laser 5642 and to the many similar devices but also those that rely on creating a vacuum at the caliper/bleed-nipple. Both are deemed pressure bleeders, as all you are really doing is creating a pressure differential in the system. I think the pressure style recommend in the region of 10psi. (I think it advises a max of 20psi on the bottle) vs the vacuum style that in a perfect world may pull 14.7 psi max. So self limiting, even if you don't have a gauge attached.
Apologies, I was being a little tongue in cheek about how do VW manage to service the vehicles if they won't sell the stuff over the counter. I irks me that it's the best they can do customer service wise, it shouldn't really be a task to buy a litre of the correct brake fluid.
The fact that the reservoir does not fill to the brim is a useful piece of information though. I had visions of mopping up and washing off brake fluid once the cap was released.
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