Post WLTP build allocation

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monkeyhanger
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Re: Post WLTP build allocation

Post by monkeyhanger »

Stevereeves:

Summer shutdowns for car manufacturers are typically 3 weeks. In that time, the contractors work daft hours to get major civil works and new/modified structural steelwork in. Maintenance staff do major annual preventative maintenance and new kit installations.

I used to be one of those contractors at a Ford plant, doing a 90 hour week for 3 weeks, and a fair bit of overtime leading up to the shutdown to get the steelwork fabricated in advance.

2 months off is unheard of unless critical parts for assembly aren't available (perhaps modified TSI engines with GPF and associated tech in this case), or a major critical installation is going on- like a new paint shop or powerstation.

How old is the Utterege plant? If it was built in the last 40 years, it won't be full of Asbestos.
At Ford Transit plant in Southampton (now closed), we had evacuations when groundworks uncovered unexploded WW2 German bombs - the factory was on the site of an RAF hangar that the Germans targetted a few times - they were the most unexpected of stoppages.
silverhairs
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Re: Post WLTP build allocation

Post by silverhairs »

I was a contractor many years ago, and also worked in car factories, but we used to install automation between machine tools, so really it was all new work, not during a shut down, I worked at Ford Swansea, Ford Dagenham, Ford Liverpool and Rover near Solihull. Good times :)
SRGTD
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Re: Post WLTP build allocation

Post by SRGTD »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:28 pm These manufacturers offering standard 5 or 7 years warranty aren't hugely more reliable than those offering 3 either, the extra warranty is an insurance policy where the cost of that warranty is built into the list price - If VW wanted to give a 7 year warranty, they could, and RRPs would go up £1000-1500. They'd rather you not keep their cars bought from new for 5-7 years, they want to keep you buying new ones
I think you’re right monkeyhanger. VW have dropped the 4 and 5 year Factory Warranty option on new cars; maybe that’s an indication of them trying to discourage people owning their cars from new for more than 3 years? Alternatively, perhaps the price charged for the extended Factory Warranty didn’t cover the cost of warranty repairs in years 4 and 5 so was loss making?

You can still buy an extended VW warranty when your car get to 3 years old, but it won’t be as comprehensive as the previous Factory Warranty option, and is likely to cost more if you buy the All Component, Nil Excess version.
monkeyhanger
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Re: Post WLTP build allocation

Post by monkeyhanger »

SRGTD wrote: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:09 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:28 pm These manufacturers offering standard 5 or 7 years warranty aren't hugely more reliable than those offering 3 either, the extra warranty is an insurance policy where the cost of that warranty is built into the list price - If VW wanted to give a 7 year warranty, they could, and RRPs would go up £1000-1500. They'd rather you not keep their cars bought from new for 5-7 years, they want to keep you buying new ones
I think you’re right monkeyhanger. VW have dropped the 4 and 5 year Factory Warranty option on new cars; maybe that’s an indication of them trying to discourage people owning their cars from new for more than 3 years? Alternatively, perhaps the price charged for the extended Factory Warranty didn’t cover the cost of warranty repairs in years 4 and 5 so was loss making?

You can still buy an extended VW warranty when your car get to 3 years old, but it won’t be as comprehensive as the previous Factory Warranty option, and is likely to cost more if you buy the All Component, Nil Excess version.
I'd find it hard to believe that if the cars were that unreliable in years 4 and 5, they wouldn't also be in years 1 to 3. If the cars are that unreliable under warranty that it's costing them an arm and a leg, they'll get the cause sorted out because the failure of a 50p part that requires a visit to the dealership is going to cost upwards of £50 to put right with dealership labour rates to consider. They won't want to be doing that for every other car.

There's a tolerable level of part failure in every process (AQL), example: if a part costs £1 and has a dead on arrival rate of 1%, and you could pay £1.20 for a better version of the same part with a dead on arrival rate of 0.5%, you'll still be paying out 19.6% more for to buy the more reliable option (simplistic example not including the cost of corrective actions, but it demonstrates the principle). If VW wanted to make a car so reliable that most would never see any warranty work, but it cost an extra £500 per car, than tolerating the failure levels they do, then they'll live with the failure rate - it makes more financial sense, and keeps the dealerships sweet with that warranty work revenue.

For those components that most would expect to last upwards of 100k miles (engine, gearbox etc.), they're highly unlikely to fail at 4 or 5 years rather than going in years 1 to 3 due to a manufacturing defect. There are some components that should certainly last 3 years but might be borderline at 5 for a lot of cars (shocks, batteries etc.) that will be a definite loser for VW under extended warranty, but those bits are relatively cheap.

I think it's all down to VW not wanting people who buy cars new to keep them twice as long. Having a certain level of unreliability does put the fear up plenty of people to have a car outside warranty . My Golf R has a 5 year warranty because I expect to keep it until at least the MK8 performance models are out (it has just turned 3 years old), for me, £500 payment for a £32k car for an extra 2 years peace of mind was a reasonable price to pay.

In other markets such as France and Germany, you can still buy the extended warranty and for a reasonable price (these markets have historically held on to their cars longer than we do) - it seems to be a VWUK decision not to offer the extended warranty anymore.
stevereeves
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Re: Post WLTP build allocation

Post by stevereeves »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:59 pm I used to be one of those contractors at a Ford plant, doing a 90 hour week for 3 weeks, and a fair bit of overtime leading up to the shutdown to get the steelwork fabricated in advance.
Many of my family members worked in factories in various roles and been told few times that 'refitting' crews worked like Trojans as the factory was shut, or production reduced, for the absolute least possible time but never for 2 months. Time literally meaning money. Been 'flayed' on the odd forum for saying this but I also believe car 'quality' has lessened in recent years with more reliance on electronics probably to save weight and production costs. I.e my Mk5 Golf was much sturdier, its build being almost tank-like in comparison to my current Mk7, apparently VW lost money on each MK5 sold. The new Polo is proably smiliar comparing new to older models. While I like my Mk7, in a prefect world (with an F1-equipped workshop and money no object) I'd combine many of its features with a Mk5 body and other features. In the mid-distant future I still kinda would like a Polo, though VW are testing my patience and interest somewhat...
monkeyhanger
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Re: Post WLTP build allocation

Post by monkeyhanger »

stevereeves wrote: Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:09 pm Been 'flayed' on the odd forum for saying this but I also believe car 'quality' has lessened in recent years with more reliance on electronics probably to save weight and production costs. I.e my Mk5 Golf was much sturdier, its build being almost tank-like in comparison to my current Mk7, apparently VW lost money on each MK5 sold. The new Polo is proably smiliar comparing new to older models. While I like my Mk7, in a prefect world (with an F1-equipped workshop and money no object) I'd combine many of its features with a Mk5 body and other features. In the mid-distant future I still kinda would like a Polo, though VW are testing my patience and interest somewhat...
There's no doubt in my mind that VWs (and every other car marque out there) are far less sturdy than their predecessors. VW's "weight saving" with hot pressed thinner body panels = cost saving. If they only find £20 saving per car, that's still a hell of a lot of money at their volume. The S3 feels a sturdier car than the Golf R, you can feel it in the thickness of the doors - they're aluminium (thick and light, as is about 60% of the bodywork (the S3 as a whole is about 60Kg lighter than the thin-steel R). Spec a Golf R up with the higher grade of leather (like the S3 has as standard and then compare with an S3 that is optioned with every bit of kit that comes as standard on the R and the S3 was only about £400 more (I'd pay an extra £400 for a more solid partially aluminium Golf or Polo that weighed 60Kg less). It's hard to get recycled steel now that hasn't been contaminated with copper, making it softer.

The MK5 Golf is a very sturdy car, not very heavy on the electrics either, I see plenty of 12 year old examples about locally still looking very tidy. Not sure that every MK5 lost money for VW, but I do know that the main reason the MK6 came about rather than a facelift MK5.5 was for huge cost savings, mainly attributed to the change in the multilink rear suspension - it was extremely time consuming to assemble the MK5 set-up (and time is money - I read somewhere that it used to add 9 hours to the build of every Golf vs the MK6 version - surely not?). When the MK6 came out the GTI was 24% more expensive than the MK5, with almost no additional kit to justify the huge hike (and IMO it was ugly, lost ithe MK5's sharp and agressive looks with the smiley front end andoversized lighting clusters.
stevereeves
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Re: Post WLTP build allocation

Post by stevereeves »

I read somewhere that Mk5 Golfs lost money for VW. I speak as I find which some folk don't like, but hey, and I seriously considered an Audi A3 when taking my 2nd MK7 Golf in 2016 but it would have been a lot, and I do mean a lot, more expensive than the equivelant Golf model. The price of some accesories & options being horrendous on both marks. The Audi pop up screen annoyed the heck out of me, and that was only on a test drive, and the A3 body design doesn't seem to have changed for a few years so it's probably ripe for a new version, no doubt lighter and therefore less substantial. I also preferred the 'look' of the Mk5 Golf over the newer, more angular body shape and while I don't dwell on the past, if I could go back in time I'd have bought the Mk5 outright: petrol 1.6FSi Match, 38k in 3 1/2 years, quiet, smooth, solid & never a peep of trouble. Furthermore if VW told me they found my Mk5 under a cover, never got sold, still in the condition I left it, mint, I'd swap back in a heartbeat. Got 'flayed' for saying than once also, but you likes what you likes don't like what you don't like. Back on topic (finally): I prefer the Polo's less angular progression from the previous model though someone in VW design dept did get carried away with the 'body panel crease machine' but I find the look is growing on me....
RUM4MO
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Re: Post WLTP build allocation

Post by RUM4MO »

silverhairs wrote: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:48 pm I paid £500 deposit, and to be honest the way the EU are treating us with this Brexit, I'd forgo the £500 not to have a German car. There not built like they used to be, we had a relation who over many years had BMW's then turned to Mercedes, his wife had a E class estate, and he had a top of the range S class. When he was looking for a new motor, Mercedes took a couple of S class cars and 4 buyers out to Spain for the test drive, for 5 days.
He had nothing but trouble with the new car, so he turned back to BMW, but he said the quality over the years had gone down on both manufacturers.
Now you look at people having problems with the Polo hand brake, it's not just the odd member who's having problems. It might be worth the wait to see if everything I've ordered is fitted to the car, just one thing missing, and they can poke it.

Why the hell did I order a German car beats me :?:
I used to work near a guy that tended to have a couple of BMWs and he used a small privately owned specialist garage to do all his repairs/servicing and the guy taht owned that said that off the 3 "premier" German car brands, ie M-B, BMW and Audi, Audi were still the more reliable - though I'd think, even being an Audi owner myself, that Audi must be following the other 2 down the lower quality route to the bottom.

I know we can't wind the clock back, but if some smart person had been dragged in after the last world war, we might have learned sometime from how these crafty Germans made cars and BMC might still have been alive and our smug car brand of desire, it was within our grasp back then was it not?
RUM4MO
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Re: Post WLTP build allocation

Post by RUM4MO »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:28 pm
Snip ----- Snip

Pressure washers are also the scourge of cars. Cars designed to be splash proof and frost proof have found themselves needing to resist water being fired upon them at 200Bar - water gets places that it shouldn't.

If you want to buy something that's more British than anything else out there - you'll be getting a Vauxhall.
Yes I agree wrt pressure washers, though main dealerships seem to still use them to give our cars that "free" wash and vac after getting work done on them.

Vauxhall, I don't know what to make of them, from the outside they do not seem to be a well formed company, ie they don't seem to offer what most people would like and follow that up with wierd advertising stuff! I have only ever had one Vauxhall, a 1991 Cav GSI 2000 16V 4X4 and it was a brilliant and extremely reliable car, okay maybe not build on a Cav production line, but on a specialist line with a few bits of Calibra (rear suspension) stuck on it, very good Recaro seats, ZF steering and Getrac gearbox, so it is possible for Vauxhall to build proper cars, or at least Opel to do that.
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