Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

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Leif
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by Leif »

The Polo TSI engines aren’t anywhere near as dirty as diesels especially for particulates:

http://www.air-quality.org.uk/26.php

The PPF is needed as emissions standards are getting tougher, though obviously petrol engines still produce CO and NOx.

I thought about a diesel car, but the greater initial cost, and the stench put me off. I know when I’m following a diesel as I feel slightly nauseous from the sweet sickly smell. People who sit parked outside a shop with their Diesel engine running is one of my pet hates. I’m sure a petrol engine would pollute the air too, less noticeably though.

Regarding revving the TSI engine, I never have to ‘rev’ mine, and I have a 95 TSI so I’m not sure what you are doing. Different driving styles I guess. You will kill the mpg though. The Polo has high gearing presumably for better mpg.
GregStudio
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by GregStudio »

Kittycat wrote: Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:55 amA bit confused to which car to take now the 95 or 115.
More confusing still is the fact that it's not a straight comparison, it's not simply a case of the exact same car just with 20 more horsepower. The 115ps version has a different gearbox, a 6 speed manual rather than the 5 speed in the 95ps. As I mentioned, what makes the 95ps work so well for me is the ratios of the box it's paired with, the 6 speed box has different ratios. I've never driven the 115ps so I'm only speculating and that speculation was based on the many reviews I read/watched when I was in a similar situation and questioning if 95ps was enough. The general consensus seemed to be that in real world driving the +20ps difference wasn't particularly obvious and that the 95ps/5 speed box was the "sweet spot" of the 1.0 engine range.

On the economy side, I'm getting better than I expected. I've done about 2,500 miles so far and the lifetime average is 50mpg but I'm in a mountainous region and about 1,500 of those miles was with 3 big adults, a boot stuffed to the gills, temps in the mid 30's (so the AC working overtime) and motorway cruising at 75-87mph (120-140kmh), speedo indicated. By comparison, my brother-in-law and I did the exact same 110 mile journey at the same time, both with 2 adults + luggage, the route being an even mix of hilly motorway and twisty roads, him in his Fiat 1.4 diesel. He drives much slower than me, I arrived 15mins before him, despite me making a petrol and toilet stop. He got 58mpg, I got 54mpg.

Greg
RUM4MO
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by RUM4MO »

I'd think that this 1.0TSI engine's time in production will be limited for the NOX reasons given, it looks like VAG Group took their eye off the ball a bit and went all out for a lower particle output smaller charged petrol engine series as that was the way the taxation groupings pointed them.

Audi A4 now does not have a 1.4TSI that power grouping has been taken over by the 2.0TSI, maybe with time after the new testing has been completed the 1.5TSI will end up in Audi A4, Passat, etc. For the Polo etc, I can see the 1.0TSI power being dropped and the 1.5TSI taking over the power slots between that and the 2.0TSI.

Though, we can only buy what is available and so so many 1.0TSI petrol engines will still get produced and fitted into new cars.

History has shown that car engine progress can be painful, with simple carbs life was easy and futuristic fuel injection systems were complex, then emissions laws forced carbs to become extremely complex and established fuel injection systems were easy to live with. DERV engines started life being simple and reliable, TDI continued this, but then emissions have, in my mind, made even them a bit too complex and fussy about what/which use they could best to put to that would enable them to provide good reliability.
Malcolm Scott
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by Malcolm Scott »

Although we seem to have wandered off topic a little, I was very interested to read the foregoing comments.

I had been intending to order a T-Cross equipped with the 1.5TSI engine and, possibly, the DSG gearbox as soon as the order books open, but after reading the Autocar comments about the (presumably WLTP tested) engine in the latest Audi Q3, I am beginning to have doubts:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/au ... 018-review
monkeyhanger
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by monkeyhanger »

Leif wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:14 am The Polo TSI engines aren’t anywhere near as dirty as diesels especially for particulates:

http://www.air-quality.org.uk/26.php

The PPF is needed as emissions standards are getting tougher, though obviously petrol engines still produce CO and NOx.

I thought about a diesel car, but the greater initial cost, and the stench put me off. I know when I’m following a diesel as I feel slightly nauseous from the sweet sickly smell. People who sit parked outside a shop with their Diesel engine running is one of my pet hates. I’m sure a petrol engine would pollute the air too, less noticeably though.

Regarding revving the TSI engine, I never have to ‘rev’ mine, and I have a 95 TSI so I’m not sure what you are doing. Different driving styles I guess. You will kill the mpg though. The Polo has high gearing presumably for better mpg.
That report must be ancient or be a piece of anti-diesel literature that conveniently leaves out facts that would redress the balance of the argument. It talks of getting shot of leaded petrol as a recent advancement (it was banned from sale in 2000), mentions catalytic conversion for petrols as a recent advancement (they became commonplace after leaded 4 star was phased out, as the lead woukd poison the catalyst if you misfueled- although they were present on select UK cars suitable for unleaded fuel only from around 1992.

It has no mention of DPFs, catalytic converters on diesels (they've been on VW TDIs from around 2000), or direct injection petrol engines. It would seem around 15 years old.

DPFs all but eliminated soot to equipped cars. VW introduced them for the highest output 2.0TDIs back in 2006 and the rest of the range in 2009.

Direct injection petrols were when petrol particulates started to be produced in meaningful quantities. They are smaller than diesel particulates, making them stay in the air longer and are inhaled far deeper into the respiratory system, it also mskes them harder to see coming out of the tailpipe, but they blacken the tailpipe in a way that a DPF equipped diesel doesn't. My Golf R has soot blackened pipes, my Polo GTI+ has blackened pipes, and i'd say it's slmost certain any 1.0TSI has too, as they all have direct injection. It's for this reason GPFs are coming in.

A recent direct injection petrol car is massively dirtier in particulate terms than a DPF equipped diesel car.

Petrols are starting to run hotter too, especially the smaller displacement engines under high load for a higher proprtion of the time than a larger engine. Many diesel engines are now running adblue to minimise NOx output.

A 1.0TSI without GPF is dirtier than a 1.6TDI in CO2 and soot output and comparable on NOx for diesels without an adblue solution.

Diesel isn't dead yet. The demonisation of diesel is putting a lot more duty and VAT in the government's pocket as we spend more on petrol than we did on diesel.

Not really much of an issue for most of us, we almost all put personal preference or cost over saving the planet while the Yanks are still driving V8 super-SUVs.
Leif
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by Leif »

Yes that article does overstate the difference. Apparently on average petrol is still cleaner than diesel but in reality it depends on the car:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42666596

Real world diesel NOx emissions are often way above limits:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33254803

This chap argues that diesel produces more NOx:

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/fact-chec ... trol-cars/

He also mentions as do others that the diesel DPF needs to warm up to be effective, so less good on short journeys, tough I have no figures. I couldn’t find particulate levels for petrol cars. Then again I only did a quick Google.

I suppose for our purposes we need on the road measurements from petrol and diesel Polos, not the emissions test results which are questionable for obvious reasons. Incidentally I don’t know about the diesel Polo, but some diesels need to be taken on occasional longish journeys to allow the DPF to regenerate, and turning off the engine during regeneration dumps diesel into the sump.
monkeyhanger
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by monkeyhanger »

Leif wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:45 pm Yes that article does overstate the difference. Apparently on average petrol is still cleaner than diesel but in reality it depends on the car:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42666596

Real world diesel NOx emissions are often way above limits:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33254803

This chap argues that diesel produces more NOx:

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/fact-chec ... trol-cars/

He also mentions as do others that the diesel DPF needs to warm up to be effective, so less good on short journeys, tough I have no figures. I couldn’t find particulate levels for petrol cars. Then again I only did a quick Google.

I suppose for our purposes we need on the road measurements from petrol and diesel Polos, not the emissions test results which are questionable for obvious reasons. Incidentally I don’t know about the diesel Polo, but some diesels need to be taken on occasional longish journeys to allow the DPF to regenerate, and turning off the engine during regeneration dumps diesel into the sump.
Yes, you would be foolish to buy a TDI to do a 5 mile commute, but on my old 20 mile each way commute in the Audi A1 1.6TDI, it was easily enough to do all the regeneration passively, so no forced regens - at least 12 miles each way 5 days a week is probably enough to cover it. When the car is not up to temp yet, it stores the soot to burn up when it is up to temp. DPFs have come a long way, with the devices now placed much closer to the engine, to warm up quicker - the A1's system was far better than that for my 2007 Golf 170TDI.

Petrol particulates in meaningful amounts is tied to the recent introduction of direct injection - petrol engines incorporating well establised diesel tech for better economy. Diesel isn't that much more energy dense than petrol, but compressing it further for a bigger bang is far more efficient. Mazda were (as of last year) developing a petrol engine that runs like a diesel, using compression for ignition, with ignition back-up to ensure all cylinders fire when expected to avoid pinking, but NOx would probably be sky high. Bosch has recently developed some diesel tech that reduces NOX to 1/6 of current average levels.

It's amazing what the manufacturers can do or progress when incentivised to do so - maybe it's Petrol's turn to get some major development innovation lavished upon it, when you can see how far diesel tech has come - common rail direct injection at colossal operating pressures, all the turbo tech, then DPF and NOx combating tech to produce economy, power and torque in spades. From an engineer's perspective, the modern diesel is far more innovative than the modern petrol engine right now.

Most articles you can find on the subject of pollution seem to be bashing petrol or diesel rather than offering a balanced discussion. Some pro-diesel stuff:-


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 144338.htm

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/eco-engi ... ons-index/

It was a toss-up between a Golf GTD and the Polo GTI+ to replace the A1, there wasn't much in it apart from the wife's desire to be in a smaller car - and as it turns out, the Polo is only marginally smaller and she's driving the Golf R these days.
mike sel
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by mike sel »

Kittycat wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:21 pm I have had a 1 litre 95ps R line Polo on order since April.
I have the choice of this 95 R line which is probably a week away or waiting until February next year for a 115 R line.
I currently lease a vehicle which is being returned this month.
The dealer I have ordered my car from has now given me a shot of a Polo to tide me over until delivery of my new car.
This is where my doubts have now started.. I have been given a shot of a 1litre 60ps Polo which I think is a SE and the performance is poor just trying to get it moving etc, and it’s drank a half tank and I’ve only done under a 100 miles
This had made me question my order completely based on the performance and fuel of this one.
Looking for reassurance that the 95 or even 115 has a bit more go about it, as I’m questioning taking delivery and running out of time and options
I currently drive a diesel so am used to more tork, power and economy.
Please can you give me some advice and help
I drive the 115hp polo and it drives fine, I have no need for a quicker car. I like the fact I can get it going 0-30mph as quick as most normal cars on the road, and I get an average of 52mph from start, have got up to 69 mpg so far. ive done 4700 miles and my car is 4 months old now. no issues to report, just good driving. it will do usual motorway speeds and keep up with others, up hill I have not noticed an issue. my mix or driving? country roads 20% dual carriageways 15% about town 40% the rest motorway. love the car love the engine hate derv it stinks and when im behind a derv car that accelerates the amount of thick black smoke coming out of the back makes me feel sick. I probably would have gone for the 1.5 150hp engine if it were available. but more then happy with the 1.0l 115 hp one I have. By the way I test drove the 95hp in the polo and its fine.
brainbow
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by brainbow »

I have a 115 limestone grey R Line. Very happy. Not driven the 95 but the 115 is very nippy round town and very comfortable in the fast lane on motorways. I’d call it a warm hatch.

Can’t comment on the 95 sorry.

Would say though that in my opinion the Limestone Grey and R Line package looks mint! :D
brainbow
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by brainbow »

This is mine :D
Attachments
B9526120-5608-4F1A-971B-3BF742B185AF.jpeg
4F0C1209-4358-4866-B87C-052715899484.jpeg
Kittycat
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by Kittycat »

I think realistically by changing colours and ps size I’ve ended up confusing myself 😂 especially since the dealer has ended up ordering another car rather then telling me I was to late to change anything from paint colour to engine size. The car has currently arrived in Germany do any of you know how long the car could be away from delivery?
I am on AL next week and hope it could arrive then.
The curtesy Polo I have been given a shot of has grown on me as I’ve continued to drive it.
So likely I’m going to take delivery of my limestone grey polo and be extremely grateful I have a new car, also ordered bonneville wheels so that should also look nice
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by monkeyhanger »

Back off topic Leif :D

I was behind a 2016 Ford Focus RS at a traffic light governed roundabout last night, waiting for the green light. It belched out as much black soot as any pre-DPF diesel car - i'm sure my R does the same to a similar degree. I was surprised how much it kicked out, and it wasn't exactly in a hurry when the lights went green. I could smell it through the ventilation system.
RUM4MO
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by RUM4MO »

Kittycat wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:54 pm I think realistically by changing colours and ps size I’ve ended up confusing myself 😂 especially since the dealer has ended up ordering another car rather then telling me I was to late to change anything from paint colour to engine size. The car has currently arrived in Germany do any of you know how long the car could be away from delivery?
I am on AL next week and hope it could arrive then.
The curtesy Polo I have been given a shot of has grown on me as I’ve continued to drive it.
So likely I’m going to take delivery of my limestone grey polo and be extremely grateful I have a new car, also ordered bonneville wheels so that should also look nice
So that means that it is in Emden in Northern Germany awaiting transport across to Newcastle, that could take 3 weeks in total if you are unlucky or maybe only a week or so if you are lucky to get to your dealership, I'm not too lucky, as my wife's Polo arrived just after her saleman had left for AL!!
RUM4MO
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by RUM4MO »

monkeyhanger wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:34 pm Back off topic Leif :D

I was behind a 2016 Ford Focus RS at a traffic light governed roundabout last night, waiting for the green light. It belched out as much black soot as any pre-DPF diesel car - i'm sure my R does the same to a similar degree. I was surprised how much it kicked out, and it wasn't exactly in a hurry when the lights went green. I could smell it through the ventilation system.
I'd be keeping a safe distance from any Fords right now as they seem to be going pop-bang and then on fire - well the latest ones with small engines that have been wound fully up from factory!
Kittycat
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Re: Help needed,Starting to question my order, days before delivery

Post by Kittycat »

RUM4MO wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:10 pm
Kittycat wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:54 pm I think realistically by changing colours and ps size I’ve ended up confusing myself 😂 especially since the dealer has ended up ordering another car rather then telling me I was to late to change anything from paint colour to engine size. The car has currently arrived in Germany do any of you know how long the car could be away from delivery?
I am on AL next week and hope it could arrive then.
The curtesy Polo I have been given a shot of has grown on me as I’ve continued to drive it.
So likely I’m going to take delivery of my limestone grey polo and be extremely grateful I have a new car, also ordered bonneville wheels so that should also look nice
So that means that it is in Emden in Northern Germany awaiting transport across to Newcastle, that could take 3 weeks in total if you are unlucky or maybe only a week or so if you are lucky to get to your dealership, I'm not too lucky, as my wife's Polo arrived just after her saleman had left for AL!!
I hope I am not waiting another 3 weeks for my car 😩
Feels like I’ve been waiting for years for it 😂
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