Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Chat about your 2018+ AW/BZ model Polos here!
Leif
Silver Member
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:21 pm
Drives: SE 95 PS
Location: East Hampshire

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by Leif »

Cadwest wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:25 am The average speed cameras on the A9 in Scotland
Thanks.
Cadwest
Bronze Member
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 7:30 am
Drives: Polo GTI+
Location: Lancashire

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by Cadwest »

Agreed Andy, I did wonder about the percentage of accidents at junctions and even how many involved tourists turning the wrong way, I’ve noticed when driving in the highlands how many junctions have idiot arrows denoting the travel of direction.

Edit. I nearly got killed once on my motorcycle by a German camper van coming out of a junction onto the wrong side of the road up near Oban.
monkeyhanger
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 2643
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:58 pm
Drives: Audi A4 Avant Quattro 40 TDI, Polo GTI+
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by monkeyhanger »

Cadwest wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:53 am
Andy Beats wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:43 am I admit, having to stick to 70mph does my head in.
Now that there's average speed cameras between Aberdeen and Edinburgh/Glasgow, the journey is even more hellish.
Partly the fact you're going so slow, mostly the fact the roads are more clogged because of it.
There simply aren't the gaps in traffic you used to get any more, because people are all going roughly the same speed and people are overtaking each other at a 'slightly different' version of 70mph.
Crawling past each other at 0.3mph more than the other...
It's horrible.
Has it not dropped the death rate by 50% though Andy, got to be a good thing. If you find it annoying just think of what it’s doing to all the BMW and Audi drivers, that would put a smile on my face :D
The death rate drop almost certainly has far more to do with advances in car tech - air bags, ABS brakes, advances in tyre compounds, seat belt pretensioners, stronger safety cells (body work), crumple zones to absorb the impact rather than bouncing off each other (the old Volvo 240 was like a sherman tank) and most recently, radar sensory braking (like ACC), than any greater level of speed monitoring. Of course we'll never know, and the authorities will take each reduction as a triumph of the cash generating speed cameras than the new safety tech.


Motorway deaths only account for 5.5% of all road fatalities, over 60% are on rural roads, and 44% of deaths are to car occupants themselves.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... t-2017.pdf


There has been an unwritten assumption that has held true for years, that if you do 80 on a motorwaywith no imposed speed restrictions, you'll not get pulled over. On this basis, and all the advancements we've seen in safety tech, groups were pushing to increase the motorway speed limit to 80, and enforce that increased speed rather than have an unofficial leeway. Pity that didn't happen.
johnpolo2
Gold Member
Posts: 502
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 6:41 am
Drives: Polo GTI 2022
Location: Stratford upon Avon

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by johnpolo2 »

It's all about control.

Sent from my SM-T585 using Tapatalk

Leif
Silver Member
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:21 pm
Drives: SE 95 PS
Location: East Hampshire

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by Leif »

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:01 pm
Cadwest wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:53 am
Andy Beats wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:43 am I admit, having to stick to 70mph does my head in.
Now that there's average speed cameras between Aberdeen and Edinburgh/Glasgow, the journey is even more hellish.
Partly the fact you're going so slow, mostly the fact the roads are more clogged because of it.
There simply aren't the gaps in traffic you used to get any more, because people are all going roughly the same speed and people are overtaking each other at a 'slightly different' version of 70mph.
Crawling past each other at 0.3mph more than the other...
It's horrible.
Has it not dropped the death rate by 50% though Andy, got to be a good thing. If you find it annoying just think of what it’s doing to all the BMW and Audi drivers, that would put a smile on my face :D
The death rate drop almost certainly has far more to do with advances in car tech - air bags, ABS brakes, advances in tyre compounds, seat belt pretensioners, stronger safety cells (body work), crumple zones to absorb the impact rather than bouncing off each other (the old Volvo 240 was like a sherman tank) and most recently, radar sensory braking (like ACC), than any greater level of speed monitoring. Of course we'll never know, and the authorities will take each reduction as a triumph of the cash generating speed cameras than the new safety tech.


Motorway deaths only account for 5.5% of all road fatalities, over 60% are on rural roads, and 44% of deaths are to car occupants themselves.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... t-2017.pdf


There has been an unwritten assumption that has held true for years, that if you do 80 on a motorwaywith no imposed speed restrictions, you'll not get pulled over. On this basis, and all the advancements we've seen in safety tech, groups were pushing to increase the motorway speed limit to 80, and enforce that increased speed rather than have an unofficial leeway. Pity that didn't happen.
In the case referred to the drop is almost certainly due largely to the speed cameras as it occurred over a few years. Without doubt the factors you mention are important on a national level over longer timescales. It’s one reason I like to buy a new car.

For years the government ignored regression to the mean which when included halved the calculated effectiveness of speed cameras. :shock: The way speed limits are enforced varies hugely. Locally the police are sensible, they use mobile units in residential areas and B roads. None of this business with motorways which are relatively safe anyway. I’ve seen four serious accidents on my commute over the last two months, none in the preceding 8 months. I’m guessing ice and the dark are two key factors. That and over bright headlights. Grrrr.
Andy Beats
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 2012
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:12 pm
Drives: Nissan Leaf 40KW (and Polo United)
Location: aberdeen

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by Andy Beats »

I must admit, as much as I hate the way average speed cameras have ruined my ability to go long distances in an acceptable time, I do scoff at the term 'cash generators'
If no-one speeds, they don't generate a penny, that's pretty obvious.
So if they're there, you have a simple choice.
Adhere to the limit, or pay the fine.
Don't moan about being caught.
Leif
Silver Member
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:21 pm
Drives: SE 95 PS
Location: East Hampshire

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by Leif »

Andy Beats wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:59 am I must admit, as much as I hate the way average speed cameras have ruined my ability to go long distances in an acceptable time, I do scoff at the term 'cash generators'
If no-one speeds, they don't generate a penny, that's pretty obvious.
So if they're there, you have a simple choice.
Adhere to the limit, or pay the fine.
Don't moan about being caught.
You really can't call average speed cameras cash generators as they are very clearly marked, and if you do miss the first one, slow down and avoid the fine. And the ones I see are at road works, where workers are often present. Ordinary speed cameras can seem like cash generators, especially when a limit has been recently reduced and the police set up a mobile unit to catch unsuspecting drivers.

I'm not keen on the "don't speed, and there's no problem" argument. That same argument could be used to justify random stop and search i.e. if you are honest you have nothing to worry about. Laws should be reasonable and not be applied unless needed.
Andy Beats
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 2012
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:12 pm
Drives: Nissan Leaf 40KW (and Polo United)
Location: aberdeen

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by Andy Beats »

Leif wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:05 am
You really can't call average speed cameras cash generators as they are very clearly marked, and if you do miss the first one, slow down and avoid the fine. And the ones I see are at road works, where workers are often present. Ordinary speed cameras can seem like cash generators, especially when a limit has been recently reduced and the police set up a mobile unit to catch unsuspecting drivers.

I'm not keen on the "don't speed, and there's no problem" argument. That same argument could be used to justify random stop and search i.e. if you are honest you have nothing to worry about. Laws should be reasonable and not be applied unless needed.
Again, there are rules about mobile units.
There have to be signposts warning of the possibility of cameras, the vans themselves have to be situated on a certain length of straight and not hidden by trees etc.etc.etc.
So people getting caught have either become complacent to the fact it's 'been a while' since they saw a van in the signposted area, or lack of observation as to the signs being there in the first place.
I'm not saying I don't speed, I just do it in areas where I'm unlikely to get caught and I'm observant in areas where I might.
It must work, because I haven't had points on my licence for 15 years, and I fully admit the last three points I got were because I wasn't paying attention in an area clearly signposted as having cameras and I didn't see a camera van.
Sheer stupidity on my part.
Truly, anyone blaming 'the man' for being caught speeding is just a bellend - it's always your fault - always.
RUM4MO
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 5859
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:12 pm
Drives: B8 S4 & 6R/6C1 1.2TSI 110
Location: Mid Lothian

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by RUM4MO »

Cadwest wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:25 am The average speed cameras on the A9 in Scotland
I always took the view that it was the cut price ad hoc way of expanding/improving junctions that there the root cause of most of the contacts being made on the A9 - really really shocking way to "improve" a main route in UK, reminds me of the Southern section of the A74 before it was converted from being a dual carriageway into being a motorway, UK central government really do not have any smart plans to develop, maintain and expand UK road systems - just waste lots of small lumps of money regularly so that "road payers" ie road users, get a warm feeling that someone knows these roads still exist.
monkeyhanger
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 2643
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:58 pm
Drives: Audi A4 Avant Quattro 40 TDI, Polo GTI+
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by monkeyhanger »

Leif wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:52 am
monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:01 pm
Cadwest wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:53 am

Has it not dropped the death rate by 50% though Andy, got to be a good thing. If you find it annoying just think of what it’s doing to all the BMW and Audi drivers, that would put a smile on my face :D
The death rate drop almost certainly has far more to do with advances in car tech - air bags, ABS brakes, advances in tyre compounds, seat belt pretensioners, stronger safety cells (body work), crumple zones to absorb the impact rather than bouncing off each other (the old Volvo 240 was like a sherman tank) and most recently, radar sensory braking (like ACC), than any greater level of speed monitoring. Of course we'll never know, and the authorities will take each reduction as a triumph of the cash generating speed cameras than the new safety tech.


Motorway deaths only account for 5.5% of all road fatalities, over 60% are on rural roads, and 44% of deaths are to car occupants themselves.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... t-2017.pdf


There has been an unwritten assumption that has held true for years, that if you do 80 on a motorwaywith no imposed speed restrictions, you'll not get pulled over. On this basis, and all the advancements we've seen in safety tech, groups were pushing to increase the motorway speed limit to 80, and enforce that increased speed rather than have an unofficial leeway. Pity that didn't happen.
In the case referred to the drop is almost certainly due largely to the speed cameras as it occurred over a few years. Without doubt the factors you mention are important on a national level over longer timescales. It’s one reason I like to buy a new car.

For years the government ignored regression to the mean which when included halved the calculated effectiveness of speed cameras. :shock: The way speed limits are enforced varies hugely. Locally the police are sensible, they use mobile units in residential areas and B roads. None of this business with motorways which are relatively safe anyway. I’ve seen four serious accidents on my commute over the last two months, none in the preceding 8 months. I’m guessing ice and the dark are two key factors. That and over bright headlights. Grrrr.
If you look at the attachment I provided, you'll see that fatalities on the road had its most significant drop between 2007 and 2011 then has remained almost static between then and the end of 2017. These are the Governments own findings.

I wouldn't attribute the significant drop between 2007 and 2011 to cameras, a few permanent Gatsos is all we had at that time, not the current variety of cameras. The sneaky camera vans didn't start getting widely used until somewhere around 2012, and motorway cameras and average speed cameras a little after that, with no significant drop coming in with their implementation.

A few months ago I saw a camera van parked up on the kerb of an overpass, on the A1(M) northbound, just before the exit up to the A19. It was clocking everyone going past - on a motorway, with no works or anything else going on.

The proliferation of cameras over the last 4 years seems to be more for profit than safety. No cameras to enforce 20mph outside schools, but plenty of 70 roads reduced to 50 when they do roadworks and then remain at 50 once the work is complete. Most of that work being in the removal of roundabouts for 4 way light junctions, snarling up traffic and ruining the flow. The main way back into my small town takes about 3 times longer from the main dual carriageway than it did. Progress.
Andy Beats
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 2012
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:12 pm
Drives: Nissan Leaf 40KW (and Polo United)
Location: aberdeen

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 am The sneaky camera vans didn't start getting widely used until somewhere around 2012, and motorway cameras and average speed cameras a little after that, with no significant drop coming in with their implementation.

A few months ago I saw a camera van parked up on the kerb of an overpass, on the A1(M) northbound, just before the exit up to the A19. It was clocking everyone going past - on a motorway, with no works or anything else going on.

Again, they're not 'sneaky'....people just get complacent and unobservant.
In the case you've provided, he may not have actually been going for speeders at all.
May have been ANPR for roadtax, in which case they don't have to abide by the same visibility rules as catching speeders.
Leif
Silver Member
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:21 pm
Drives: SE 95 PS
Location: East Hampshire

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by Leif »

monkeyhanger wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 am
Leif wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:52 am
monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:01 pm

The death rate drop almost certainly has far more to do with advances in car tech - air bags, ABS brakes, advances in tyre compounds, seat belt pretensioners, stronger safety cells (body work), crumple zones to absorb the impact rather than bouncing off each other (the old Volvo 240 was like a sherman tank) and most recently, radar sensory braking (like ACC), than any greater level of speed monitoring. Of course we'll never know, and the authorities will take each reduction as a triumph of the cash generating speed cameras than the new safety tech.


Motorway deaths only account for 5.5% of all road fatalities, over 60% are on rural roads, and 44% of deaths are to car occupants themselves.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... t-2017.pdf


There has been an unwritten assumption that has held true for years, that if you do 80 on a motorwaywith no imposed speed restrictions, you'll not get pulled over. On this basis, and all the advancements we've seen in safety tech, groups were pushing to increase the motorway speed limit to 80, and enforce that increased speed rather than have an unofficial leeway. Pity that didn't happen.
In the case referred to the drop is almost certainly due largely to the speed cameras as it occurred over a few years. Without doubt the factors you mention are important on a national level over longer timescales. It’s one reason I like to buy a new car.

For years the government ignored regression to the mean which when included halved the calculated effectiveness of speed cameras. :shock: The way speed limits are enforced varies hugely. Locally the police are sensible, they use mobile units in residential areas and B roads. None of this business with motorways which are relatively safe anyway. I’ve seen four serious accidents on my commute over the last two months, none in the preceding 8 months. I’m guessing ice and the dark are two key factors. That and over bright headlights. Grrrr.
If you look at the attachment I provided, you'll see that fatalities on the road had its most significant drop between 2007 and 2011 then has remained almost static between then and the end of 2017. These are the Governments own findings.

I wouldn't attribute the significant drop between 2007 and 2011 to cameras, a few permanent Gatsos is all we had at that time, not the current variety of cameras. The sneaky camera vans didn't start getting widely used until somewhere around 2012, and motorway cameras and average speed cameras a little after that, with no significant drop coming in with their implementation.

A few months ago I saw a camera van parked up on the kerb of an overpass, on the A1(M) northbound, just before the exit up to the A19. It was clocking everyone going past - on a motorway, with no works or anything else going on.

The proliferation of cameras over the last 4 years seems to be more for profit than safety. No cameras to enforce 20mph outside schools, but plenty of 70 roads reduced to 50 when they do roadworks and then remain at 50 once the work is complete. Most of that work being in the removal of roundabouts for 4 way light junctions, snarling up traffic and ruining the flow. The main way back into my small town takes about 3 times longer from the main dual carriageway than it did. Progress.
Can I suggest you read what I posted as I was referring to "The average speed cameras on the A9 in Scotland". And I quite clearly said "In the case referred to the drop is almost certainly due largely to the speed cameras as it occurred over a few years." You are confusing the A9 and overall speed camera use and statistics.
barrywi
Gold Member
Posts: 526
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:42 pm
Drives: GTI plus ( at last!) JaguarXJ 2007
Location: Cumbria uk

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by barrywi »

My original post was to suggest that 70 mph is now too slow for modern cars . I was not suggesting we should all speed over the limits. I would be happy with a raised limit and having to accept the speed cameras, fixed or mobile .
I am now 72 and one third and have never had a speeding conviction or any points on my licence so I suppose I am both very lucky and could be classified as a careful driver.
Certainly for roads that are not busy ,80 mph would be quite acceptable and should not result in any increase in injuries or deaths. I also wonder whether the statistics take into account the reasons for deaths on the road. Could not drunk , uninsured , cloned plated or drug influenced drivers be more likely to speed?
There was a famous quote from someone... “ Lies, Damned lies and statistics” , which may not be an accurate quote but makes the point. Didnt research and statistics predict an end of the world scenario if we voted to leave the EU ? I do not remember that happening, maybe it will ...or won’t when we leave the EU in 2049 ( Joke , please do not start a Brexit thread)
monkeyhanger
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 2643
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:58 pm
Drives: Audi A4 Avant Quattro 40 TDI, Polo GTI+
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by monkeyhanger »

Andy Beats wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:59 am
monkeyhanger wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 am The sneaky camera vans didn't start getting widely used until somewhere around 2012, and motorway cameras and average speed cameras a little after that, with no significant drop coming in with their implementation.

A few months ago I saw a camera van parked up on the kerb of an overpass, on the A1(M) northbound, just before the exit up to the A19. It was clocking everyone going past - on a motorway, with no works or anything else going on.

Again, they're not 'sneaky'....people just get complacent and unobservant.
In the case you've provided, he may not have actually been going for speeders at all.
May have been ANPR for roadtax, in which case they don't have to abide by the same visibility rules as catching speeders.
They're sneaky when they hide.

There's one on one of the roads on my commute home, there 2 or 3 times a week. They park illegally where they site themselves to hide the van as best they can. The vans themselves changed colour last year, so they now look like British Gas vans.

If that's not sneaky then I don't know what is.

One got it's comeuppance a few years ago. It was repeatedly parking on private land at the Newcastle cat and dog shelter in Benton, despite the cat and dog shelter telling them to clear off. The shelter managed to get a Denver boot onto the van while it was operational and ticketed them like any other member of the public parking there not as a customer. They had all the correct warning signage up so the local police station had to pay up for release.
monkeyhanger
Bling Bling Diamond Member
Posts: 2643
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:58 pm
Drives: Audi A4 Avant Quattro 40 TDI, Polo GTI+
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Re: Raise the limit( not the Titanic)

Post by monkeyhanger »

Leif wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:06 pm

Can I suggest you read what I posted as I was referring to "The average speed cameras on the A9 in Scotland". And I quite clearly said "In the case referred to the drop is almost certainly due largely to the speed cameras as it occurred over a few years." You are confusing the A9 and overall speed camera use and statistics.
So you did, my mistake.
Post Reply