115ps now 110ps ?

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Andy Beats
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:41 pm That's incorrect. There are now more charging points than Petrol stations as per the survey Nissan did in 2019, but given that a typical petrol station has 12 to 18 filling points, the number of cars that can use a petrol station simultaneously dwarfs the number of EVs that can use a charging point simultaneously.

Also to consider that an ICE car will be at that fuel pump for no more than 5 mins vs 40 mins+ on a rapid charge station (use of rapid charging points will seriously reduce the service capacity of your battery if used frequently enough). It's still a huge issue.

For those handful of early adopters out there on the roads with their EVs right now, how many of them made their choice because they do have off-,street parking to allow charging from home or they do have exclusive use of that small bank of chargers at work because no-one else at work has an EV?

As soon as there's enough EVs out there for those drivers to have some serious competition for charging spots, that's when people will regret having an EV.

Anyone living in a flat right now that doesn't have a spare charging point at their place of work right now won't even consider an EV.

Until the government pulls their finger out and starts having many streetside charging points (maybe fed from the street light network), or rapid charging twch progresses to 15 min charges with enough charging points to rival the number of filling points that the petrol station network has, EV can't work for the masses.

That's all without considering the extra pressure on our grid. As soon as EV use starts putting a significant hole in the government's fuel duty and VAT coffers, electricity will get expensive - that's without considering how the expanded charging infrastructure is going to be paid for.
Rapid charging doesn't take 40 minutes on every electric car, my (relatively) ancient Leaf only took 20 mins and that's if I wanted a 0% to 80% charge - in reality, many EV owners just do a 'splash and dash' and only charge for as much as they need.
Indeed, if you go to the likes of the fantastic charging station in Dundee, there are people monitoring how long you use the bays.
Rapid charging doesn't hammer batteries either, umpteen examples of taxi companies and other users disproving that particular nonsense.
I do agree massive adoption now would be problematic, but basically every other point you have is based on that and therefore irrelevant.
After only a week of driving this noisy, jerky mess of a car I do wish I'd pushed harder for an ID3 or maybe a higher power Leaf.
I'd have the acceleration performance I need without all the tiring nonsense.
But I've made my bed for two years, probably....maybe... :)
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by monkeyhanger »

Mass adoption now and the problems that come with are relevant to your comment:

"Fact is it's still ignorance and fear, rather than actual practical problems, that is stopping people".

It's not fear, it's knowing that the UK simply isn't ready for even 5% EV ownership yet. I've highlighted several practical problems there that are yet to be resolved That is what's stopping me.

Get the charging infrastructure in place, get some decent range coupled with a short rapid charge time, get the prices down to ICE levels and I'll seriously consider buying one.

Until then, to avoid being stuck in a queue for a charging point, knowing that each person in front of me will want 30 mins, 200 miles from where I live on a long journey to visit relatives... I'll stick with petrol and diesel.

It's a pretty hard conversion for EV when the preacher opted not to have one. When you've swapped a car that you fundamentally dislike for a more powerful version of a car you still fundamentally dislike rather than buy an EV, it seems like a car form of self-flagellation to me.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:58 pm Mass adoption now and the problems that come with are relevant to your comment:

"Fact is it's still ignorance and fear, rather than actual practical problems, that is stopping people".

It's not fear, it's knowing that the UK simply isn't ready for even 5% EV ownership yet. I've highlighted several practical problems there that are yet to be resolved That is what's stopping me.

Get the charging infrastructure in place, get some decent range coupled with a short rapid charge time, get the prices down to ICE levels and I'll seriously consider buying one.

Until then, to avoid being stuck in a queue for a charging point, knowing that each person in front of me will want 30 mins, 200 miles from where I live on a long journey to visit relatives... I'll stick with petrol and diesel.

It's a pretty hard conversion for EV when the preacher opted not to have one. When you've swapped a car that you fundamentally dislike for a more powerful version of a car you still fundamentally dislike rather than buy an EV, it seems like a car form of self-flagellation to me.
There are umpteen surveys done about EVs, I've yet to see one where your claim about the UK not being ready is given as a reason.
Daft range anxiety is still the number one thing that stops folk, cost of getting one being another.
The former is baseless crap for most people, 200 miles + is now the norm without any difficulty.
The latter is getting there, I noticed a deal at my local Renault dealer offering a Zoe for £299 down and £299 a month, not a lot dearer than the equivalent Clio, with the obvious far lower fuel costs catering for the difference.

With regard to your last comment, it's circumstance rather than choice.
The slowness of the beats was doing my head in and the dealer made it easy and attractive to change for the immediate future.
No deposit, merely another £70 a month and no payments until January....hard to ignore that to get me into something faster!
Swapping to another make, as the VW ID3 was unavailable even if I stretched my self-imposed budget, was a world of grief I couldn't be assed with.
Even though I currently (sic) drive an ICE, I know EVs are hugely superior....hugely so
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by monkeyhanger »

200 miles in on the way to a longer journey, requires a top up stop. My parents moved to the other end of the country, 350 miles away, so i'd need to stop on the way. 200 miles is all you can realistically expect from most of the newer EVs right now.

Surveys or not, the UK isn't ready for mass buy up of EVs, for the reasons already stated, mainly around charging infrastructure which is comfortably enough for the EVs we have on the roads now and not much more, with no signs of that infrastructure expanding in leaps and bounds year on year between 2018 and now. You don't need a survey to tell you that you can see it with your own eyes when out driving.

There are so many reasons not to buy an EV yet, they outweigh the reasons for doing so.

While they remain expensive to buy (negating any fuel savings) and potentially a PITA/non-starter to charge at home, with a charging infrastructure and national grid that needs to get a hell of a lot bigger to meet the government's targets of EV take-up - many people will be buying ICE for the foreseeable.

Performance of EVs isn't especially good relative to price. £35k for an ID3 after grant and it has MK5 Golf GTI performance, of it's performance you want then buy a Golf R or S3 for that kind of money.

I wonder how soon the Yanks will give up their lazy V8s? Apart from the Californians, I think they'll continue with them as long as gasoline remains relatively cheap. The Arabs will be giving the stuff away in 20 years time, until the run out, it'll be a buyers market.
Last edited by monkeyhanger on Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:54 pm 200 miles in on the way to a longer journey, requires a top up stop. My parents moved to the other end of the country, 350 miles away, so i'd need to stop on the way. 200 miles is all you can realistically expect from most of the newer EVs right now.

Surveys or not, the UK isn't ready for mass buy up of EVs, for the reasons already stated, mainly around charging infrastructure which is comfortably enough for the EVs we have on the roads now and not much more, with no signs of that infrastructure expanding in leaps and bounds year on year between 2018 and now. You don't need a survey to tell you that you can see it with your own eyes when out driving.

There are so many reasons not to buy an EV yet, they outweigh the reasons for doing so.

While they remain expensive to buy (negating any fuel savings) and potentially a PITA/non-starter to charge at home, with a charging infrastructure and national grid that needs to get a hell of a lot bigger to meet the government's targets of EV take-up - many people will be buying ICE for the foreseeable.

I wonder how soon the Yanks will give up their lazy V8s? Apart from the Californians, I think they'll continue with them as long as gasoline remains relatively cheap. The Arabs will be giving the stuff away in 20 years time, until the run out, it'll be a buyers market.
Not many people drive 350 miles without a break, so when you're having your coffee you top up.
Infrastructure is expanding rapidly, I see it locally (huge increase in nunber of charge points in Aberdeen in last two years)
Absolute tripe (sorry but it is) to say the reasons for not buying one outweigh the reasons to do so. :shock:
Who are you to judge that? :?:
Some people like the green aspect, some prefer the drive, some save such an amount on fuel the cars pay for themselves (yes, really).
You seem reluctantly interested, I was like this myself once, I'd suggest you join 'speakEV' and learn more.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by vc-10 »

monkeyhanger wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:54 pm There are so many reasons not to buy an EV yet, they outweigh the reasons for doing so.
For you. Not for everyone. It's not like tomorrow everyone is going to ditch their ICE car for an EV.

I've been on Zap-Map and worked out I can get to Heathrow and back without too much issue in an ID.3. I'd want to stop for a coffee/bathroom break on both journeys anyway, and with 50kw charging it's not too onerous. Picking up my other half from Heathrow is basically the longest journey I do, if I drive straight back to Manchester*. My next car is very, very, likely to be an ID.3.

*Why does he fly to Heathrow? Because AA stopped their direct Chicago-Manchester flight, so it often costs him hundreds more to fly to MAN.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by monkeyhanger »

Andy Beats wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:43 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:54 pm 200 miles in on the way to a longer journey, requires a top up stop. My parents moved to the other end of the country, 350 miles away, so i'd need to stop on the way. 200 miles is all you can realistically expect from most of the newer EVs right now.

Surveys or not, the UK isn't ready for mass buy up of EVs, for the reasons already stated, mainly around charging infrastructure which is comfortably enough for the EVs we have on the roads now and not much more, with no signs of that infrastructure expanding in leaps and bounds year on year between 2018 and now. You don't need a survey to tell you that you can see it with your own eyes when out driving.

There are so many reasons not to buy an EV yet, they outweigh the reasons for doing so.

While they remain expensive to buy (negating any fuel savings) and potentially a PITA/non-starter to charge at home, with a charging infrastructure and national grid that needs to get a hell of a lot bigger to meet the government's targets of EV take-up - many people will be buying ICE for the foreseeable.

I wonder how soon the Yanks will give up their lazy V8s? Apart from the Californians, I think they'll continue with them as long as gasoline remains relatively cheap. The Arabs will be giving the stuff away in 20 years time, until the run out, it'll be a buyers market.
Not many people drive 350 miles without a break, so when you're having your coffee you top up.
Infrastructure is expanding rapidly, I see it locally (huge increase in nunber of charge points in Aberdeen in last two years)
Absolute tripe (sorry but it is) to say the reasons for not buying one outweigh the reasons to do so. :shock:
Who are you to judge that? :?:
Some people like the green aspect, some prefer the drive, some save such an amount on fuel the cars pay for themselves (yes, really).
You seem reluctantly interested, I was like this myself once, I'd suggest you join 'speakEV' and learn more.
The average Joe's enthusiasm for being green wanes when they're getting hit in the wallet for it. When you buy an EV that costs 30-50% more than an ICE of equal size/performance/equipment, you need to do a lot of electric miles to make up for that additional purchase price. Around Newcastle, I've mot seen an appreciable increase in charging points in the last 5 years. The council run car parks made about 5% of their multistorey parking spaces EV charging points, and the bigger Asdas and IKEA gave a few that charge you £6 for a charge session which is waived if you spend over £70 there.

What you report happening in Aberdeen certainly isn't representative of what's happening in the Tyne Tees region. We got charging points about 5 years ago which seemed loads for the handful of EVs around then, but not now. Around here if you can't charge at home (because you live in a property where you can't park on a drive), an EV is a total non starter. I won't consider an EV until prices align with ICE and the charging infrastructure gets a lot better - and that's a pretty common stance on the subject.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by monkeyhanger »

vc-10 wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:00 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:54 pm There are so many reasons not to buy an EV yet, they outweigh the reasons for doing so.
For you. Not for everyone. It's not like tomorrow everyone is going to ditch their ICE car for an EV.
.
No not for everyone, but for most, otherwise you would have EV sales rapidly outpacing the growth in charging infrastructure - which would be highly inconvenient for EV drivers that can't get straight on a charging point when they stop during that long journey for coffee and a toilet break. Remember how long it took to queue and fill up during the fuel blockades? That 2 hour wait would be your reality if EV sakes really took off while the charging network expands at a crawl. I need to see more charging points being installed before I will consider an EV, but as always with the government - they are reactive rather than proactive.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by vc-10 »

I agree we need more. But registrations of pure EVs were up 112% in the first 8 months of 2020 compared to 2019, despite coronavirus and people delaying purchases etc.

I suggest taking a look at this. EV sales are rapidly increasing. A lot of people can charge at home, and for them an EV can make a lot of sense.

How often does the average person do a truly long journey? Not often. How many times does the average person fill up their car to do day-to-day errands? All the time. I will do a long journey every couple of months and I'm in a minority doing that. And I could still quite happily do it in an EV. Hell, the majority of my long drives are to my parents in Wiltshire, which would be just about doable with an ID.3 on a single charge. Would take a while to charge up there on a 3-pin plug though :lol:
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by monkeyhanger »

vc-10 wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:49 pm I agree we need more. But registrations of pure EVs were up 112% in the first 8 months of 2020 compared to 2019, despite coronavirus and people delaying purchases etc.

I suggest taking a look at this. EV sales are rapidly increasing. A lot of people can charge at home, and for them an EV can make a lot of sense.

How often does the average person do a truly long journey? Not often. How many times does the average person fill up their car to do day-to-day errands? All the time. I will do a long journey every couple of months and I'm in a minority doing that. And I could still quite happily do it in an EV. Hell, the majority of my long drives are to my parents in Wiltshire, which would be just about doable with an ID.3 on a single charge. Would take a while to charge up there on a 3-pin plug though :lol:
Those stats show that although rising, pure EV sakes are still a tiny proportion of overall sales and number of cars on the road is a drop in the ocean - 142,000 cars vs 32 million cars in the UK, about a quarter of 1%. 6% of new car sales in 2020 were pure EV, which means 94% of people buying a new car chose not to down that route yet.

The masses still need convincing to make the conscious decision to get one while they still have a choice.

Unless you're a company car driver with a meaningful tax break for chosing EV, or living within the congestion charge of London,most people are still looking at EVs and deciding not to yet because it's an expensive option.

From a purely monetary point of view, paying £100-150 a month extra to buy the EV equivalent of whatever class of car you're in totally obliterates any fuel savings anyone is making unless they're doing a lot of miles.

The current drawbacks definitely outweigh the advantages for most:-

Disadvantages:
Purchase cost of the car
Range (mainly on the smaller cars)
Seriously diminished Winter range
Lack of ability to charge at home (how many people are in that situation, living in flats or houses without off street parking? 70% of the driving population?)

Advantages:
Cost of charging from home and if you're lucky, you might get access to free charging while out and about.
Possible tax incentives for company car owners.
London congestion charge savings.

Andy keeps on about performance, but performance vs cost, there's no advantage there. The cheapest of EVs have poor range and slow 0-62 times.

The more expensive ones with the bigger batteries start to rival low end hot hatches that are 2/3 of the price of the EV.

To get serious performance you need to be spending upwards of £50k.

We are a long way from EVs appealing to the majority of the car buying population and that's down to car cost and a lack of charging infrastructure to support those who can't charge at home.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:20 am Those stats show that although rising, pure EV sakes are still a tiny proportion of overall sales and number of cars on the road is a drop in the ocean - 142,000 cars vs 32 million cars in the UK, about a quarter of 1%. 6% of new car sales in 2020 were pure EV, which means 94% of people buying a new car chose not to down that route yet.

The masses still need convincing to make the conscious decision to get one while they still have a choice.

Unless you're a company car driver with a meaningful tax break for chosing EV, or living within the congestion charge of London,most people are still looking at EVs and deciding not to yet because it's an expensive option.

From a purely monetary point of view, paying £100-150 a month extra to buy the EV equivalent of whatever class of car you're in totally obliterates any fuel savings anyone is making unless they're doing a lot of miles.

The current drawbacks definitely outweigh the advantages for most:-

Disadvantages:
Purchase cost of the car
Range (mainly on the smaller cars)
Seriously diminished Winter range
Lack of ability to charge at home (how many people are in that situation, living in flats or houses without off street parking? 70% of the driving population?)

Advantages:
Cost of charging from home and if you're lucky, you might get access to free charging while out and about.
Possible tax incentives for company car owners.
London congestion charge savings.

Andy keeps on about performance, but performance vs cost, there's no advantage there. The cheapest of EVs have poor range and slow 0-62 times.

The more expensive ones with the bigger batteries start to rival low end hot hatches that are 2/3 of the price of the EV.

To get serious performance you need to be spending upwards of £50k.

We are a long way from EVs appealing to the majority of the car buying population and that's down to car cost and a lack of charging infrastructure to support those who can't charge at home.
Cost is coming into line with equivalent ICE cars, I've demonstrated that already with the Renault Zoe deals that are going around.
And range needn't be an issue on small cars either, the manufacturers can and do give them decent range if they want.
You can buy a Zoe that will do 200 miles, you can also buy a Honda that will only do 90 miles - horses for courses.
And looking at 0-60mph times isn't the full story, the accessibility of the acceleration is what's addictive.
You sit behind an EV that's slow, on paper, and watch him fly away from you at the lights - no revs, no clutch slipping, no drama.
Really addictive.
I also disagree that you need to spend £50K to get impressive acceleration.
ID3 - 7.3 seconds.
tesla model 3 - 5.3 seconds
Hyundai kona - 7.9 seconds.
All faster than your average car and, as I've said, in an accessible way all the time.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by monkeyhanger »

Is 7.3s fast these days? Not really. You xan buy a 170-200ps diesel that'll do that for far less money than an ID3 or a Kona is.
Like I said before, the ID3 is Golf R/Audi S3 money (0-62 in 4.5s). The mid range Tesla model 3 model that you're quoting almost matches the Golf R but is a £47k motor. The top model is around RS3 territory in performance but is a £55k motor. The Tesla, like pretty much all motors primarily designed for the American Market has a hideously cheap interior. I've been to our local Tesla garage, the model 3 looks ok on the outside. On the inside, the trim materials used are akin to those you'll find on a Dacia.

That demonstrates the huge premium you have to pay for an EV over the current ICE ranges to get equivalent performance.

If you want to buy an EV that'll outperform a £22k ICE car, you'll need to pay £35k for an EV. Similarly, pay £47k for an EV to get close to a £35k Golf R with 4WD for no drama or tramping from a standstill.

Some of the 0-62 times are impressive, but most of that is in the lower end, straight off the line. In the 40-70mph range, the ICE car with equivalent output will embarrass the EV. Some will engage in the boy racers traffic light grand prix, but I prefer a more usable mid range.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:20 am Is 7.3s fast these days? Not really. You xan buy a 170-200ps diesel that'll do that for far less money than an ID3 or a Kona is.
Like I said before, the ID3 is Golf R/Audi S3 money (0-62 in 4.5s). The mid range Tesla model 3 model that you're quoting almost matches the Golf R but is a £47k motor. The top model is around RS3 territory in performance but is a £55k motor. The Tesla, like pretty much all motors primarily designed for the American Market has a hideously cheap interior. I've been to our local Tesla garage, the model 3 looks ok on the outside. On the inside, the trim materials used are akin to those you'll find on a Dacia.

That demonstrates the huge premium you have to pay for an EV over the current ICE ranges to get equivalent performance.

If you want to buy an EV that'll outperform a £22k ICE car, you'll need to pay £35k for an EV. Similarly, pay £47k for an EV to get close to a £35k Golf R with 4WD for no drama or tramping from a standstill.

Some of the 0-62 times are impressive, but most of that is in the lower end, straight off the line. In the 40-70mph range, the ICE car with equivalent output will embarrass the EV. Some will engage in the boy racers traffic light grand prix, but I prefer a more usable mid range.
Yes, 7.3 seconds is far faster to 0-60mph than most drivers are used to - you're out of touch with average cars if you don't think so.
And, again, you're only looking at figures on paper, you're not taking the type of acceleration into account.
I had a passenger this morning, he wanted to see the acceleration, so I floored it.
OK, I didn't have to balance throttle and clutch like I would in a manual car, but it was still an unholy racket and jerky gearchanges etc.
The same experience in an EV is completely undramatic and seamless, so you do end up using the acceleration more often.
I've never used acceleration as often as I did in my Leaf, before or since, simply because it was easy and completely undramatic.
You even get away with using the acceleration with passengers, without looking or sounding like a hooligan.
I defy anyone to drive an EV and not use maximum acceleration far more often than they do in an ICE - far more. 8)
Last edited by Andy Beats on Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by Andy Beats »

vc-10 wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:49 pm Would take a while to charge up there on a 3-pin plug though :lol:
You tend not to notice when you're sleeping. 8)
I used three-pin until podpoint installed my 7KW charger and it was fine.
My car tends to sit in the drive between 8PM and 8AM, more than enough time and I could have not bothered with the 7KW charger at all, really.
But it was free, so I took it.
I'll undoubtedly have to change the tethered cable type when I get an EV again, but it's an easy enough DIY job.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by monkeyhanger »

Andy Beats wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:56 am
monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:20 am Is 7.3s fast these days? Not really. You xan buy a 170-200ps diesel that'll do that for far less money than an ID3 or a Kona is.
Like I said before, the ID3 is Golf R/Audi S3 money (0-62 in 4.5s). The mid range Tesla model 3 model that you're quoting almost matches the Golf R but is a £47k motor. The top model is around RS3 territory in performance but is a £55k motor. The Tesla, like pretty much all motors primarily designed for the American Market has a hideously cheap interior. I've been to our local Tesla garage, the model 3 looks ok on the outside. On the inside, the trim materials used are akin to those you'll find on a Dacia.

That demonstrates the huge premium you have to pay for an EV over the current ICE ranges to get equivalent performance.

If you want to buy an EV that'll outperform a £22k ICE car, you'll need to pay £35k for an EV. Similarly, pay £47k for an EV to get close to a £35k Golf R with 4WD for no drama or tramping from a standstill.

Some of the 0-62 times are impressive, but most of that is in the lower end, straight off the line. In the 40-70mph range, the ICE car with equivalent output will embarrass the EV. Some will engage in the boy racers traffic light grand prix, but I prefer a more usable mid range.
Yes, 7.3 seconds is far faster to 0-60mph than most drivers are used to - you're out of touch with average cars if you don't think so.
And, again, you're only looking at figures on paper, you're not taking the type of acceleration into account.
I had a passenger this morning, he wanted to see the acceleration, so I floored it.
OK, I didn't have to balance throttle and clutch like I would in a manual car, but it was still an unholy racket and jerky gearchanges etc.
The same experience in an EV is completely undramatic and seamless, so you do end up using the acceleration more often.
I've never used acceleration as often as I did in my Leaf, before or since, simply because it was easy and completely undramatic.
You even get away with using the acceleration with passengers, without looking or sounding like a hooligan.
I defy anyone to drive an EV and not use maximum acceleration far more often than they do in an ICE - far more. 8)
I am definitely out of touch with average cars, I really don't feel that 7.3s to 62mph is quick at all. Better rubber on the GTI (like PS4s) definitely help reduce the tramping. I haven't owned a car intended for my own personal use with a 0-62 time slower than 7.3s since 2007. My A4 and my old R don't tramp at all due to having Quattro/4-motion, so I'm aware of the feel of smooth acceleration (it's all a bit dull though, power and refinement, would have more fun driving a rough around the edges chuckable hot hatch). It would be irresponsible to use that instant lift off a lot of the time though - especially at roundabouts when others are expecting you to move off at their kind of pace rather than like a scalded cat in a gap the other person wouldn't consider a gap at the pace they're expecting you to move in. Give me £35k to spend on a car and a Golf R or Audi S3 is much more appealing to me than an ID3.

Battery tech needs to change - those rare earth metals aren't called rare for nothing, could easily anticipate those running out at the quantities we'd need to supply mass migration to EVs or becoming massively more expensive to extract.
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