115ps now 110ps ?

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Andy Beats
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:30 am I am definitely out of touch with average cars, I really don't feel that 7.3s to 62mph is quick at all. Better rubber on the GTI (like PS4s) definitely help reduce the tramping. I haven't owned a car intended for my own personal use with a 0-62 time slower than 7.3s since 2007. My A4 and my old R don't tramp at all due to having Quattro/4-motion, so I'm aware of the feel of smooth acceleration (it's all a bit dull though, power and refinement, would have more fun driving a rough around the edges chuckable hot hatch). It would be irresponsible to use that instant lift off a lot of the time though - especially at roundabouts when others are expecting you to move off at their kind of pace rather than like a scalded cat in a gap the other person wouldn't consider a gap at the pace they're expecting you to move in. Give me £35k to spend on a car and a Golf R or Audi S3 is much more appealing to me than an ID3.

Battery tech needs to change - those rare earth metals aren't called rare for nothing, could easily anticipate those running out at the quantities we'd need to supply mass migration to EVs or becoming massively more expensive to extract.
Eh? :shock:
I should make sure I accelerate at the same rate as others in case it 'startles them' - get a grip man, you're just making up ludicrous scenarios now. :lol: :lol:
Irresponsible.....deary me.
With regard to rare earth metals, the manufacturers are aware of this and lithium free batteries are on the way. 8)
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by monkeyhanger »

In the case of entering a roundabout you should definitely consider your speed relative to others' expectations of your speed

Have you never had someone enter a roundabout right in front of your path and then you hit the brakes as you think you'll perhaps hit them if you don't, only to find that they pick up pace far quicker than you expected and are no longer in danger of you hitting them?
Andy Beats
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:34 pm In the case of entering a roundabout you should definitely consider your speed relative to others' expectations of your speed
It's a car, not the Flash.
Even using full acceleration it doesn't suddenly quantum leap 30 yards.
Sheesh...
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by monkeyhanger »

Andy Beats wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:57 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:34 pm In the case of entering a roundabout you should definitely consider your speed relative to others' expectations of your speed
It's a car, not the Flash.
Even using full acceleration it doesn't suddenly quantum leap 30 yards.
Sheesh...
That's a fair point of view if you think that 0-62 in 7.3s is fast.

I'd rather not drive like that and scare older folks or those not expecting you to accelerate out of what they believe is an impending crash.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:52 pm
That's a fair point of view if you think that 0-62 in 7.3s is fast.

I'd rather not drive like that and scare older folks or those not expecting you to accelerate out of what they believe is an impending crash.
You're contradicting yourself.
You don't consider cars that take 7 seconds to 60mph as fast.
Therefore even if I use full acceleration onto a roundabout, I can't be catching "older folks" out by arriving fast, can I. :)
It really is a very strange viewpoint that when joining a roundabout from a standstill, I should only accelerate in a moderate way.... :?
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by OomStu_ZA »

Fact is it's still ignorance and fear, rather than actual practical problems, that is stopping people.

Another BIG one is safety while sitting at the charging station for an extended period. It is especially true in a place like South Africa, nevermind at night too.

When speaking about EV's think globally. Most western (developed) countries are better prepared perhaps but for those in less privileged environments things are a little more difficult to say the least.

While the whole EV debate is nobal its just not practical as a global effort at this time and am sure ICE will be the norm for many years to come.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by Andy Beats »

OomStu_ZA wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:17 pm Fact is it's still ignorance and fear, rather than actual practical problems, that is stopping people.

Another BIG one is safety while sitting at the charging station for an extended period. It is especially true in a place like South Africa, nevermind at night too.

When speaking about EV's think globally. Most western (developed) countries are better prepared perhaps but for those in less privileged environments things are a little more difficult to say the least.

While the whole EV debate is nobal its just not practical as a global effort at this time and am sure ICE will be the norm for many years to come.
I can only talk about the UK, the lack of safety of other countries isn't something I considered relevent here.
What is the ZA government's stance on EV adoption?
The UK has moved the ban on the sale of new ICE cars forward from 2040 to 2035, and now 2030.
Of course by then, and judging by the speed of development in the past few years, EV range certainly won't be an issue for anything other than daft distance junkies.
For example, the pack of batteries required to power a Zoe 90 miles has reduced from the size of the whole floor pan to the size of a suitcase. 8)
And if they use the whole floorpan, it now goes +200 miles.
400-500 mile EVs will be here long before 2030.
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OomStu_ZA
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by OomStu_ZA »

I cannot speak for the ZA Government but can only go on the information available in magazine articles, the interwebs, and the news. In an article posted on a local news site, IOL, from 2017 it said:
"The AA said that, to date, there has not been any suggestion from the South African government of a ban on internal combustion engines, anytime in the future."

That said there has been more of a push lately to introduce EV vehicles in ZA with a few of the manufacturers (notably BMW, Nissan, Jaguar) also installing charging points around the country (main city areas and national routes). The roll out is slow but they are moving on with their plans, or so we are told. I cannot say I've heard any news from VW about their plans to install charging points around the country, but they are keen to sell their cars. VWSA recently brought in 6 E-Golfs for journos to run about with and offer us readers/viewers with "real life" insights as to owning an EV car. The new ID series is still a pipe dream for us plebs.

Another factor many South African's must consider is range of an EV because of the distances we travel. Public transport is not as swish or as safe as the tube or bus service there. Lastly, the cost of ownership is prohibitive for most locals with prices starting from 28000 Pounds (R6240000 here) for a Mini E something, its just not on the horizon of most peoples budgets.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by Andy Beats »

OomStu_ZA wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:41 pm I cannot speak for the ZA Government but can only go on the information available in magazine articles, the interwebs, and the news. In an article posted on a local news site, IOL, from 2017 it said:
"The AA said that, to date, there has not been any suggestion from the South African government of a ban on internal combustion engines, anytime in the future."

That said there has been more of a push lately to introduce EV vehicles in ZA with a few of the manufacturers (notably BMW, Nissan, Jaguar) also installing charging points around the country (main city areas and national routes). The roll out is slow but they are moving on with their plans, or so we are told. I cannot say I've heard any news from VW about their plans to install charging points around the country, but they are keen to sell their cars. VWSA recently brought in 6 E-Golfs for journos to run about with and offer us readers/viewers with "real life" insights as to owning an EV car. The new ID series is still a pipe dream for us plebs.

Another factor many South African's must consider is range of an EV because of the distances we travel. Public transport is not as swish or as safe as the tube or bus service there. Lastly, the cost of ownership is prohibitive for most locals with prices starting from 28000 Pounds (R6240000 here) for a Mini E something, its just not on the horizon of most peoples budgets.
Interesting that it's the manufacturers that are installing charging points there, whereas only Tesla do that here.
All other chargers are independent charging companies like Polar and Instavolt.
English drivers have to pay for their electricity at public chargers, Scottish drivers get it for free.
Hence I was cheaper to use public charging than charging at home.
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OomStu_ZA
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by OomStu_ZA »

Andy Beats wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:41 pm
Interesting that it's the manufacturers that are installing charging points there, whereas only Tesla do that here.
I know right, and to think Elon Musk was born here. He wants nothing to do with ZAR and dont blame him at all.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by monkeyhanger »

Andy Beats wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:41 pm Interesting that it's the manufacturers that are installing charging points there, whereas only Tesla do that here.
All other chargers are independent charging companies like Polar and Instavolt.
English drivers have to pay for their electricity at public chargers, Scottish drivers get it for free.
Hence I was cheaper to use public charging than charging at home.
That's probably the only way the UK's charging network is going to expand enough for a significant portion of EV ownership - private funding. Either the car companies will pay for it and build it into the price of the EVs, making them even more expensive than they are now, or other private companies will fund the installation of them and charge the earth to use them.

Those free Scottish chargers are unsustainable at scale up - a few here and there to get the ball rolling on EV ownership then we'll all be paying 10-15p a mile to run an EV car.

In the grand scheme of things, the European effort will be pissing into the wind while the USA, China, India and Latin America are happy to burn fossil fuels on a grand scale. China just announced they'll be carbon neutral by 2060 and have ramped up the installation of new coal fired power stations.

Cost beats environmental concerns for almost everyone, and the main reason continental Europe is leading the way in forcing us out of our ICE cars is that we're already used to paying a lot to fuel our cars. In countries where you can fill a petrol tank relatively cheap, they're mot ready to stomach the costs of everything required to make mass EV ownership work - either directly or indirectly.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by vc-10 »

Regarding price- to get a BMW 3-series with a sub 5 second 0-60 you need an M340i. Which starts at £49,295. Meanwhile a Polestar 2, a similarly sized electric car with 0-60 in the same ballpark and a sane interior (cough, Tesla, cough) costs £46,900. And that Polestar will have a lot of features you have to pay extra for on the BMW, because they're still only doing the 'launch editions'.

Also- you keep banging on about the ID.3. Go on the German site for more accurate pricing- the £35k price is for the '1st Edition' model, which has an early adopter tax. In Germany, a mid-range ID.3 is about the same price as a base GTI, once the German subsidy is taken into account (it's around €3,500, similar to the UK).

Tell me again how EVs are always more expensive than a comparative ICE car?


Nobody is saying that everyone should switch to EVs tomorrow. My point (and Andy's by the looks of things) is that they are becoming more and more viable for more and more people, and are increasing in popularity as a result. They already fit into a lot of people's lives (whether they believe it or not) and that percentage is just going up.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by Andy Beats »

China is becoming a major player in cheap EVs, some of the cars they previewed at a show a few weeks back were amazing.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by monkeyhanger »

vc-10 wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:36 pm Regarding price- to get a BMW 3-series with a sub 5 second 0-60 you need an M340i. Which starts at £49,295. Meanwhile a Polestar 2, a similarly sized electric car with 0-60 in the same ballpark and a sane interior (cough, Tesla, cough) costs £46,900. And that Polestar will have a lot of features you have to pay extra for on the BMW, because they're still only doing the 'launch editions'.

Also- you keep banging on about the ID.3. Go on the German site for more accurate pricing- the £35k price is for the '1st Edition' model, which has an early adopter tax. In Germany, a mid-range ID.3 is about the same price as a base GTI, once the German subsidy is taken into account (it's around €3,500, similar to the UK).

Tell me again how EVs are always more expensive than a comparative ICE car?


Nobody is saying that everyone should switch to EVs tomorrow. My point (and Andy's by the looks of things) is that they are becoming more and more viable for more and more people, and are increasing in popularity as a result. They already fit into a lot of people's lives (whether they believe it or not) and that percentage is just going up.
How is the "more accurate pricing" from Germany relevant to a UK customer? The UK price for an ID3 is £35k AFTER a £3k subsidy/grant. You can't walk into a UK VW dealership and ask to pay the German price. Performance wise that ID3 is on a par with a MK7.5 Golf GTD that was £29k when it was discontinued for the forthcoming MK8 Golf, and had a lot more standard kit.

If the Polestar has the same interior as a Tesla then it's a poor place to be - the Tesla interior is just awful, like current Dacias or how Hyundais used to be 20 years ago, horrendously cheap and creaky interior. Surely not though, it's Swedish, i'd be expecting a decently built interior.

The crux of it is, for the vast majority of people, the EV still just doesn't deliver for the premium you're expected to pay over ICE.

Even Andy couldn't bring himself to pay the extra required to buy that EV he craves so much, even with the draw of free charging in Scotland. To me that speaks volumes about the current lack of value for money that the current crop of EVs provide.

EV sales are growing, but 78% growth of a tiny number is still a tiny number. Until they deliver more than they do currently for less money or the government stops you getting access to new ICE cars, the majority of people will avoid them.

EVs have been available for a while now, but of the 37.7 million cars actively registered in the UK, only 0.37% of them are pure electric cars. That's an absolutely miniscule amount, considering we're 10 years away from having no choice for a new car but an EV. The car manufacturers need to bite the bullet and reduce their prices 20% to make them more appealing. They can afford to do it, far more cars sold to spread those development costs around, they'll be no worse off.
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Re: 115ps now 110ps ?

Post by vc-10 »

You can't walk into a UK dealer and buy a regular ID.3, that's my point. Because they haven't launched here yet. Only the 1st Edition ones. It's also worth comparing the running costs of an ID.3 to that GTD. The monthly lease price might be higher, but the monthly 'fuel' cost will be lower unless you're charging at motorway fast chargers.

The Polestar has a gorgeous interior. It's a Volvo, after all. I agree that the Tesla interiors are awful, and my 'cough, Tesla, cough' was to say that the Tesla 3 doesn't have a sane interior, whereas the Polestar does.

Regarding pricing- the rate of change in battery costs is staggering. Same with the capabilities. Look at the Zoe- the current car is basically the same as the original in terms of structure and mechanicals. But goes twice as far. The battery is still taking up the same amount of space, and the cost per kWh of battery has come right down.

Again- nobody's saying that everyone should switch to an EV right now. My point is that they make sense for a lot of people already, and that proportion is increasing with new developments.
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