Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

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Andy Beats
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by Andy Beats »

I just checked, it's the T005 I have.
Which obviously explains why I'm not getting the severe lack of grip described above, wet or dry.
Just noise and a bit of an insecure feeling at speed in surface water.
Simonz
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by Simonz »

monkeyhanger wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:53 pm
Simonz wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:26 pm Would VW knowingly fit dangerous or sub standard tyres to the Polo? If they are passed as fit for use BS standard then it may be down to individual preference. Not sure if there are any tyres that allow you to use full throttle in any situation without the car feeling unstable.
Substandard is a matter of opinion. They meet specification and legal requirements, doesn't mean its a good tyre. On the UK Roads, my opinion is that Bridgestone's propensity for compounds that are ultra hard don't suit our climate. They might actually be a lot softer for use way down the South of Europe where it's generally a lot warmer, or on a track where they'll heat up nicely. Driven normally on UK British roads though?

This subject has been done to death on many VAG group forums and it's been shown that for pretty much the rest of Europe (France, Germany, Spain, Poland, Italy etc.) Performance Golfs don't get Bridgestones, but the UK does, and also it seems the Polo GTI for the RHD markets with 18" Brescias.

I was nowhere near using full throttle (more like 40% throttle) with fully occupied seating when the back end got away. At that point I wondered whether the Polo's handling was poor and begging for multilink rear suspension to stabilise it...but no, it was those awful tyres and the car was transformed when they were taken off.

There are many tyres that would allow you to use full throttle in multiple situations with good weather. Ever used full throttle to overtake someone? That's a pretty common full throttle manoeuvre that most of us gave done.

Pretty much everyone here that has made the change will tell you what a hugely positive difference ditching the Bridgestones has made.

I do wonder what leeway VW have for tyre use when gathering driving data for official use. I bet the 0-62 times weren't achieved with Turanza T001 tyres, nor tge fuel economy/emissions figures. Early UK Polo GTI press review vehicles were all shod with Michelin PSS tyres before being handed over to journos. Do you need to wonder why they didn't gave standard fit Bridgestones on?
Some good points. I suspect VW did a deal with Bridgestone and Falken to supply the Polo tyres, when you consider the numbers involved and economies of scale they could save a lot of cash by even getting less expensive tyres a few pence cheaper specified from the factory. I know other manufacturers drift towards Kuhmo to save a few pennies as well rather than Michelin / Continental premium brands. As you say the stock tyres may be adequate but under some situations don't perform as well as a purely performance focused tyre. Not what you want when applying power to over take and in wet conditions. There will be tyre experts within VW who know all the subtle characteristics and as you say swapping brands over can make a huge difference be it for performance, economy testing, money saving at the factory.
Simonz
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by Simonz »

Andy Beats wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:00 pm I just checked, it's the T005 I have.
Which obviously explains why I'm not getting the severe lack of grip described above, wet or dry.
Just noise and a bit of an insecure feeling at speed in surface water.
Maybe an improved compound? Even a very slight difference can have a big affect on the grip / handling characteristics. Considering you have 200ps to get down on the road it's not the area to make any economies, maybe fine in the cooking models but not GTI.
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by SRGTD »

Andy Beats wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:00 pm I just checked, it's the T005 I have.
Which obviously explains why I'm not getting the severe lack of grip described above, wet or dry.
Just noise and a bit of an insecure feeling at speed in surface water.
Mine also has T005’s fitted. I’ve also not experienced lack of grip issues yet, nor any tramping. Time will tell though......

Noise-wise, it’s always difficult to draw comparisons with tyres on a previous car when you no longer have that car, but the T005’s don’t seem any more or less noisy than the Continental ContiSport tyres I had on my last GTI. If anything, I’d say they are slightly quieter but I put that down to the Conti’s having covered a fair few miles and getting noisier as the tread had worn down.

Interestingly, low aquaplaning resistance was stated as a negative at the tyre reviews link posted by @Nodster earlier in this thread, which supports your view of an insecure feeling at speed in surface water.
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by Nodster »

Aye the T005 is a better tyre. I can't remember what mine was standard. I want to say T001 or T002.

But it's certainly not a tyre suited to a 200PS car. The Mk8 Fez ST I believe has Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres.... my Abarth 595 had Michelin PS4s standard. Yet the Polo GTi came with Bridgestone Turanza T00x tyres.... makes no sense to me.
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by monkeyhanger »

Simonz wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:44 pm
Andy Beats wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:00 pm I just checked, it's the T005 I have.
Which obviously explains why I'm not getting the severe lack of grip described above, wet or dry.
Just noise and a bit of an insecure feeling at speed in surface water.
Maybe an improved compound? Even a very slight difference can have a big affect on the grip / handling characteristics. Considering you have 200ps to get down on the road it's not the area to make any economies, maybe fine in the cooking models but not GTI.
The wife's 2019 GTI+ came on T005, my 2018 GTI+ came on T001. After my almost-mishap, i'd made my mind up to get shot on day 1 so didn't get time to appraise them on the 3 mile journey from work (where the wife's GTI was delivered to on the back of a trailer) to Costco to swap them out.

I was pretty confident that they'd be pretty much as awful, seeing as I've suffered multiple models of Bridgestone Potenza over 4 different Golfs bought new in 2005, 2007, 2013 and 2017 and they were all as poor as each other.

Not sure why VW are putting touring tyres (Bridgestone Turanza 18" or Michelin Primacy 17") on the Polo GTI rather than sporting tyres - maybe they don't think the Polo is hot enough to need them?

VW probably get those Turanzas at a massively subsidised amount, with the expectation that some will replace like-for-like and Bridgestone will make a bundle on repeat aftermarket buys of their £150 a piece tyres.

Pretty sure some on here that have switched did so from T005 after finding them pretty poor too.
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by monkeyhanger »

SRGTD wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:58 pm
Andy Beats wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:00 pm I just checked, it's the T005 I have.
Which obviously explains why I'm not getting the severe lack of grip described above, wet or dry.
Just noise and a bit of an insecure feeling at speed in surface water.
Mine also has T005’s fitted. I’ve also not experienced lack of grip issues yet, nor any tramping. Time will tell though......

Noise-wise, it’s always difficult to draw comparisons with tyres on a previous car when you no longer have that car, but the T005’s don’t seem any more or less noisy than the Continental ContiSport tyres I had on my last GTI. If anything, I’d say they are slightly quieter but I put that down to the Conti’s having covered a fair few miles and getting noisier as the tread had worn down.

Interestingly, low aquaplaning resistance was stated as a negative at the tyre reviews link posted by @Nodster earlier in this thread, which supports your view of an insecure feeling at speed in surface water.
I just switched out the Contisport6 on the back axle of my A4 for Goodyear Eagle F1 Supersports as the Contis were almost done in (12k miles done - they are soft as butter) and the difference in ride comfort is huge, the F1s are much better. I didn't expect a change in rear tyres to make such a profound difference to the car overall.

Not sure how Conti managed to make a tyre so soft (high level of wear) and yet so noisy.

I eouldn't buy Contis with my own money.
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by SRGTD »

monkeyhanger wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:21 pm
SRGTD wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:58 pm
Andy Beats wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:00 pm I just checked, it's the T005 I have.
Which obviously explains why I'm not getting the severe lack of grip described above, wet or dry.
Just noise and a bit of an insecure feeling at speed in surface water.
Mine also has T005’s fitted. I’ve also not experienced lack of grip issues yet, nor any tramping. Time will tell though......

Noise-wise, it’s always difficult to draw comparisons with tyres on a previous car when you no longer have that car, but the T005’s don’t seem any more or less noisy than the Continental ContiSport tyres I had on my last GTI. If anything, I’d say they are slightly quieter but I put that down to the Conti’s having covered a fair few miles and getting noisier as the tread had worn down.

Interestingly, low aquaplaning resistance was stated as a negative at the tyre reviews link posted by @Nodster earlier in this thread, which supports your view of an insecure feeling at speed in surface water.
I just switched out the Contisport6 on the back axle of my A4 for Goodyear Eagle F1 Supersports as the Contis were almost done in (12k miles done - they are soft as butter) and the difference in ride comfort is huge, the F1s are much better. I didn't expect a change in rear tyres to make such a profound difference to the car overall.

Not sure how Conti managed to make a tyre so soft (high level of wear) and yet so noisy.

I eouldn't buy Contis with my own money.
I’d covered over 22k miles on the Contisports on my last GTI and the fronts still had 4mm of tread on them so I didn’t experience high levels of wear. Admittedly, I don’t drive like a boy racer, but then I don’t drive like a grand dad either.
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:21 pm Not sure how Conti managed to make a tyre so soft (high level of wear) and yet so noisy.
Don't think the compound has much/any bearing on noise.
The noise is caused by air being compressed under the tyre and squished through the tread.
The bigger the 'gaps' in the tread the more air that gets trapped and squished and the noisier a tyre is (hence winter tyres and offroad tyres are noisier and slicks are the quietest)
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by monkeyhanger »

SRGTD wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:32 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:21 pm
SRGTD wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:58 pm

Mine also has T005’s fitted. I’ve also not experienced lack of grip issues yet, nor any tramping. Time will tell though......

Noise-wise, it’s always difficult to draw comparisons with tyres on a previous car when you no longer have that car, but the T005’s don’t seem any more or less noisy than the Continental ContiSport tyres I had on my last GTI. If anything, I’d say they are slightly quieter but I put that down to the Conti’s having covered a fair few miles and getting noisier as the tread had worn down.

Interestingly, low aquaplaning resistance was stated as a negative at the tyre reviews link posted by @Nodster earlier in this thread, which supports your view of an insecure feeling at speed in surface water.
I just switched out the Contisport6 on the back axle of my A4 for Goodyear Eagle F1 Supersports as the Contis were almost done in (12k miles done - they are soft as butter) and the difference in ride comfort is huge, the F1s are much better. I didn't expect a change in rear tyres to make such a profound difference to the car overall.

Not sure how Conti managed to make a tyre so soft (high level of wear) and yet so noisy.

I eouldn't buy Contis with my own money.
I’d covered over 22k miles on the Contisports on my last GTI and the fronts still had 4mm of tread on them so I didn’t experience high levels of wear. Admittedly, I don’t drive like a boy racer, but then I don’t drive like a grand dad either.
Well I can't profess to know how the first owner drove my A4 for the first 10400 miles, but enough for the Audi garage to replace the fronts as they'd gone down below the 3mm limit they set for replacement on a car they're going to sell. The rears just scraped over the 3mm limit, and with a slow puncture a few weeks ago on one of the rears, I decided to replace them with Goodyear Eagle F1 Supersport.

Considering the car's got Quattro, the 4WD system makes for pretty even and low tyre wear as there's no wheelspin even under hard driving, the fronts wearing marginally more than the rears due to the effects of steering. My Golf R (Haldex based 4WD, same as the Quattro system of the S3) demonstrated the low wear of 4WD pretty well. I drove that car pretty hard on occasion and the Michelin PSS only had 4mm wear over 27k miles of driving. Tramping/wheelspin causes accelerated wear on tyres (hence rear tyres on a FWD car last ages).

Lots of people on the Audisport forum report Contisport 6 lasting 8k miles on the fronts without Quattro and about 14k miles all round with Quattro. They do seem incredibly soft. Maybe the extra weight of the car doesn't help matters, but for the A4, that rate of tyre wear for tge Conti6 is very poor.
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by monkeyhanger »

Andy Beats wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:57 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:21 pm Not sure how Conti managed to make a tyre so soft (high level of wear) and yet so noisy.
Don't think the compound has much/any bearing on noise.
The noise is caused by air being compressed under the tyre and squished through the tread.
The bigger the 'gaps' in the tread the more air that gets trapped and squished and the noisier a tyre is (hence winter tyres and offroad tyres are noisier and slicks are the quietest)
That's one cause, but the noise of a hard tyre against the road's surface is just as big a factor. A hard and unyielding tyre like the Bridgestone variants are less squishy than Michelins and the like' so the compression of air in the treads will be less for the Bridgestones.

It's like comparing a noisy pair of heels on a hard floor to a squelchy/squeaky pair of shoes on the same floor - both are noisy, in their own way.
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:31 pm That's one cause, but the noise of a hard tyre against the road's surface is just as big a factor. A hard and unyielding tyre like the Bridgestone variants are less squishy than Michelins and the like' so the compression of air in the treads will be less for the Bridgestones.
How much a tyre 'squishes' against the surface is nothing to do with compound.
It's sidewall construction etc.
You could have a very unyielding tyre with a soft compound, or vice versa.
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by Andy Beats »

Horrendous rain on Saturday, had to come into work late afternoon and the roads were dead, so it gave me the chance to really push the tyres in as horrible wet conditions as anyone in the UK is likely to face.
I'm glad to say the feeling of them wanting to aquaplane at speed in standing water seems to be just that, a feeling. :)
And certainly no grip issues, as mentioned before.
I'll stick with them, changing them for a feeling I've proven to myself is baseless would be a crass waste of money.
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by monkeyhanger »

Andy Beats wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:53 am
monkeyhanger wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:31 pm That's one cause, but the noise of a hard tyre against the road's surface is just as big a factor. A hard and unyielding tyre like the Bridgestone variants are less squishy than Michelins and the like' so the compression of air in the treads will be less for the Bridgestones.
How much a tyre 'squishes' against the surface is nothing to do with compound.
It's sidewall construction etc.
You could have a very unyielding tyre with a soft compound, or vice versa.
Although I didn't specifically mention compound hardness there, the Bridgestones do have a hard compound, but they also have a very rigid sidewall compared to the Michelins - you really notice the difference on turn in. The current recommendations by VW for tyre pressure are much higher than would have been considered normal 5 years ago, which all adds to the rolling noise and rigidity. The T001 and Potenza S001s are like running runflats on a BMW. So of course compound hardness has an effect in tyre noise. The sound of rubber rolling over asphalt or concrete is very noticeable. When the road surface changes from tarmac to concrete, the noise transmitted by the tyres is a lot louder, and that isn't air escaping the treads at a higher rate. That's a tyre rolling over a harder (and usually ridged) surface and more vibration through the chassis as a result.

In the same way, a harder and more rigid tyre will transmit more vibration up the chassis than a softer and more yielding tyre on a certain road surface. A hard and rigid tyre is absorbing less rolling impact force itself less than a soft and flexible one, and transferring it all up the chassis - the shocks and springs can't absorb everything.

As I said, there's more than 1 component to tyre roar, and which ones dominate the whole mix of noises depend on multiple aspects of tyre construction, including compound hardness, sidewall stiffness, and tread pattern plus tyre pressures. Compound hardness and a stiff sidewall create greater frictional noises in addition to the sound of air being compressed out of the tyre treads.
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Re: Standard Bridgestones / wet driving

Post by Andy Beats »

monkeyhanger wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:43 am Although I didn't specifically mention compound hardness there, the Bridgestones do have a hard compound, but they also have a very rigid sidewall compared to the Michelins - you really notice the difference on turn in.
So turn in should be better on the Bridgestones.
Sidewall flex is worse for turn-in.
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