9n front wheel hub nut

Chat about your 9n Polo (inc GT and Fun)
littlepolo
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9n front wheel hub nut

Post by littlepolo »

I'm trying to remove the front wheel hub nut to replace the hub assy. The nut is the twelve point type, 36mm across flats (actually 0.3 under). I have a Laser branded socket that fits the new nut but the socket is a close fit on the hub interior and will not easily slide in the register over the old nut. I could whack it in with a copper mallet but not sure if it might get stuck. I've cleaned out the area around the old nut as best I can. Has anyone had a good experience with a particular brand of 36mm socket (preferably 1/2" drive).

Once I get a socket to fit, will I be able to undo the old hub nut with a 3' breaker bar? Or would I be better off hiring an impact driver?

Regarding torques, since the hub assy is complete with bearing am I correct that I don't need to pre-load the bearing (overtighten and back off) and can just torque up to 37 ft lbs and then 1/6 turn?
RUM4MO
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Drives: B8 S4 & 6R/6C1 1.2TSI 110
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by RUM4MO »

That is a nuisance, I have been out and measured the OD of my Laser Tools Impact 36mm Bi-Hex and it was 51mm,that socket was bought back in maybe late 2006/early 2007 and used on a 2002 VW Polo 1.4 16V 75PS, I next used it on a late 2009 SEAT Ibiza 1.4 16V 86PS and in both cars I had no issues at all.

Tightening torque, 50Nm + 45degrees, the longest 1/2" sqr drv breaker bar I have is 24", and I achieved that setting okay - always using a new nut.
littlepolo
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by littlepolo »

Previously I had to replace a broken spring and top bearing on the o/s. I tried to use the exact same socket. While the socket went into the hub it did not bite on the hub nut and in the end I had to drill it out. I cannot recall exactly, but presumably it went OK fitting the new nut and torquing it up. The socket falls into the new hub assembly and on visual inspection seems to fit the new hub nut close enough to get a good bite and enable torquing up (hope I have not spoken too soon). I'll try and relieve the socket and the old hub and hope it will find enough metal to turn it. With all the quality issues I've found on this Polo over the years I think it must have been built during a period of industrial strife.

Should the new nut/hub assy be torqued with the wheel on the ground or in the air? I read something about rotating the wheel half a turn (loaded) before final torquing but I think that was in relation to fitment of a new bearing (vs the complete new hub assy I'm fitting).

PS. That is the exact same socket I have. There is a US Tools version which seems to have an OD of 49mm (stated by the manufacturer). I put my Vernier on the Laser socket and measured 35.69mm.
RUM4MO
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by RUM4MO »

I think that I can remember thinking that the lead-in at the bottom of these sockets, very handy for full width nuts, would cause an issue with this "short/half" nut bearing area, but it worked out okay, if I ever had easy access to a machine shop, I'd get it to chop off that lead-in section.

I've always considered that, even with my wife's August 2015 build Polo 6C 1.2TSI 110PS SEL, that all these build issues stem from VW Group basing all these Polos, and Ibizas on the 1999 Skoda Fabia, and it is only in areas that there are common items, invariably make in CZ, that quality of steel is shocking. A bit like BL, they "liked" using too much Russian sourced steel - and it along with other issues destroyed that company!

Torquing up that nut, you can only do so much while it is up in the air, as long as you have got it "tight" ie no free movement, then what harm can come to it if you then get it back on its own weight to complete the tightening. I think that only issue with putting weight on a bearing assembly, is if you do that when it is less than hand tight, so there can be free movement and so potential to damage the bearing assembly.
littlepolo
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by littlepolo »

The lead in seems to be a 45 degree internal chamfer. Had to relieve the external diameter back about 5/8" using a grindstone to get the socket to seat. No problem at all to undo with the breaker bar.

The original hub nut was straight across the external face. The new ones have a deep chamfer inside, possibly to save a bit of weight and material. The hub itself protrudes only a short way (enough to be a concern in terms of overall strength, although it probably holds up in terms of calculations).
littlepolo
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by littlepolo »

Correction. The lead in is not a 45 degree chamfer. Much less. Anyway, the nut is now off with assistance of a relieved impact socket and a breaker bar. Brake assy and ABS sensor removed. Lower wishbone disconnected.

Next obstacle - cannot drift or remove the drive shaft from the n/s hub. Tried a cheap hub puller but too much spring in it. Purchase a three-leg static puller (fixed to hub by wheel bolts) which has a 25mm screw. Got a wrench and breaker on it and was able to turn maybe 3 turns (with some effort) before coming to a halt. The drive shaft is not moving at all. The movement was possibly some give in the puller and maybe compression of the material on the end of the screw and/or drive shaft. It seems to be stuck fast. Did I overlook something?
RUM4MO
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by RUM4MO »

I did buy a cheapish hub puller/presser before working on the late 2009 Ibiza, but in the event I could have probably done without it, but used it as I had bought it. Getting the shaft out of my wife's old 2002 Polo back in early 2005 or 2006 was also easy enough, just hub nut off, lower swivel bolts removed and off/out it came.

I was think again about your issues with the hub nut, as my impact socket was 51mm OD it probably had less "play" when in the counterbore so stayed on the nut better, if I was ever to modify that socket for this specific job, I would turn the end down to get rid of the lead-in and add a chamfer to the outer edge to optimise its grip on these short nuts that seem too have a chamfer.

Edit:- have you tried leaving it overnight "loaded up" and see it it slackens off a bit?
littlepolo
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by littlepolo »

I seem to recollect that removal of the o/s drive shaft (broken spring and top bearing replacement) was easy - it literally fell off. In this case it really seems stuck (as if there's a cotter pin in it!). I've not left it overnight so could try that, as well as, perhaps, a tap with a sledge hammer in the morning (the screw is braced by the puller legs but the shock transfer might help). In vain hope I've left it swimming in Plus Gas. The thread is definitely swelling so will at least require some fettling if the assy comes apart.

Searching online the issue seems not uncommon across VAG and some advocate remove of strut assy and driveshaft and replacement of latter as an overall time saver. I read that someone bent the crossbars on their hydraulic press attempting to remove the stub axle. In the event that nature does not take its course I have found Febi 109401 which looks like it might fit (grateful if anyone can confirm). Would this be supplied with new bolts? I already have the hub and hub nut so would need only 3x new bolts for the bottom wishbone and 3x for the strut top unless I missed anything.

None of this bodes well for removal of the hub assy which is the overall objective.
littlepolo
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by littlepolo »

The driveshaft is stuck fast. Opened the stub axle boot to try and drift it off but that's not moving either. Probably going to replace the driveshaft assy. Can anyone help with a part no please? 2002. 14.16V BBY auto.
littlepolo
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by littlepolo »

Just a quick update on progress. Will post photos and remaining work later.

I could not drift off the stub axle/cv so took an angle grinder to the ball race after cutting open the boot.
Released stub axle/hub assy from driveshaft.
Removed strut assy (3 bolts at top).
Stub axle inner spline was then able to drift off the driveshaft (driveshaft splines look OK).
Left stub axle soaking in a pool of Plus Gas overnight (it had drained down in the morning).
More Plus Gas.
Set strut on wooden blocks and hit stub axle with a drift and a lump hammer (slight movement but then stuck again).
More Plus Gas.
Fitted puller assy and loaded puller (no movement detected - on an in-situ attempt the movement was the wheel nuts bending).
Hit M25 bolt a few times with a sledgehammer.
Able to rotate puller bolt with a lot of creaking and eventually driveshaft dropped out.
Applied Plus Gas around wheel hub/bearing assy.
Fitted 72mm bearing extractor tool.
Used long breaker bar and after more creaking old bearing/hub assy came out.
Cleaned up steering knuckle with a wire brush.
Cleaned up bearing housing and ensured that reliefs (undercuts) were clear.
Applied lithium grease to bearing housing (it was all I had at hand).
Used bearing tool to press in new bearing (it went in a lot easier than it came out - minor creaking as it pressed in).

Decided to fit new components (drop link, ball joint, steering rod end) to n/s front due to possible damage from sledgehammer applied to loaded puller. Also going to replace the front strut top bearing since I have one of the pair left over from doing the o/s some years ago - I can't recall but think this is fitted without any grease/lube?.
RUM4MO
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by RUM4MO »

It does not sound right that these top bearings get fitted without any grease being "rubbed/rolled" into them, but as I found that the old ones come out with no evidence of grease, I fitted a total or 3 over the years, to my wife's 2002 Polo 1.4 16V without greasing them - though I'd think, what bad would greasing do?

I wish I knew the answer to this question, I've replaced the different design of top bearing (now small) to a late 2009 Ibiza, and again old ones looked like they had not been greased and the new ones were fitted as supplied - dry.

Edit:- I'm sure that my wife's August 2015 VW Polo 1.2TSI 110PS SEL bought new, will, within its life with us, need new springs, so I'll be again replacing the (now small) top bearings.
littlepolo
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by littlepolo »

Agreed, but so fitted (as was the o/s). I had read comments that grease encourages dust/debris retention and risks premature wear/failure. The units I fitted are Lemforder and certainly seem to be heavy duty enough. Incidentally, the old bearing seemed OK, but thought I might as well replace to avoid unplanned work.
RUM4MO
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by RUM4MO »

Absolutely, though what made it clear to me that new top bearings would be needed was the loss of some of the balls on one side as the spring broke at half height.
I think that the new top bearings, maybe even Lemsforder, had fewer and bigger balls than the GKN VW Group original top bearings - but only after 4 years they are still moving freely.
The maybe even Lemsforder replacement, on the NS started to seize up badly after the following maybe 5 years so needed replacing again with same sourced from ECP.
littlepolo
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Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by littlepolo »

The saga so far in pictures.
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Trying to remove hub assy
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Firepower
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littlepolo
Gold Member
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:47 pm

Re: 9n front wheel hub nut

Post by littlepolo »

Pressing in the new bearing using the same tool albeit with a different back plate was easy.
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The bearing seems fully seated
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The view through the ABS sensor port.
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With the ABS reluctor ring fitted position as below. I forgot to check the old one. Does the position look correct?
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There is a bit of a gap at the bottom where the stub axle goes into the hub. The part I removed had a plastic ring here (not sure if the gap was fully sealed/closed or not).
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Last edited by littlepolo on Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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