At least Dick Turpin wore a mask!!

[wolfie]

Prior to me getting the 1.2Tsi I ran a 9N Polo in 1.9Tdi (105bhp) guise for almost 10 years. I can't really fault the car, in all that time the worst it could manage was a front passenger side spring and a wheel bearing on the same corner. Oh and a faulty brake light switch (common fault apparently) the day after I picked it up, sorted by the following lunchtime. I can't deny the engine was somewhat agricultural by modern standards but it never missed a beat and out of curiosity I looked up the cars MOT history and it is soldiering on to this day, well over 100K miles now. It had better paint than the 6R and in sports trim the seats were also better.

I bought the 1.2Tsi with same intension of it being a "keeper" I do tend buy new and hang on to my cars. Now I like the 6R, I think it's a good looking car with a decent enough interior, even though it feels cheapened in some areas. It rides like a much bigger car, way better that the 9N and it's a good size. I bought the 1.2TSi because all the motoring review said it was the "sweet-spot" of the range. In use the engine does very well for itself, but! and it's a BIG BUT!! It appears to be quite badly flawed. Cam chain stretch looks like it's widespread on early cars, so much so that, that variant has already been binned off. Yet another big-up for VW quality and integrity, in that you would have perhaps expected a recall but no joe public picks up the bill again. I've also had it in for two paint faults and now there is also an issue with a slightly odd tick-over/idle speed. Thing is mine has had a easy life, it's only done 20K miles, never missed a service and yet I already have doubts about it's long term reliability.

I like Vdubs, I want them to build decent cars, however at the moment each new generation seems more flawed than the last. I'm seriously thinking about downsizing this year to a CitiGo or Mii, maybe an Up! (Still VAG I know) Basically because I just don't do any miles now, and don't need anything larger.

[Wolfi]

I know this sounds like sour grapes...
I'd be wary of the Up! etc... Old friend come VW mechanic who has been at the same VW garage for 30 years once told me that he'd have a Polo every time, regardless of size or money. This is just because the Polo is understandably screwed together with higher quality parts underneath (e.g material of cluth etc)

I've heard on the grapevine that the 1.2 TSI is a Skoda designed unit that is built in Czech-Slovakia...

Is yours a 6C Wolfie?... As that is supposed to be a much stronger than the older unit in the 6R.

[wolfie]

Is yours a 6C Wolfie?... As that is supposed to be a much stronger than the older unit in the 6R.

No unfortunately mine is a 2011/6R0. With the CBZB engine. I had a peek on the Skoda forums and it would seem that there is an updated chain cover to stop the chain jumping and possibly different chain. When I say different, better materials rather than a re-design.

Can't argue the Polo is a better built, but I can't stretch to "Polo" money this year.

[Robby71]

Sorry wolfie - haven't been to the VW dealer the last couple of days but will ask about the updates next time i'm there.

Interesting about the timing chains on the VWs, the chain stretch has been on the Mini Cooper S since the R56 version (with turbo) since 2007 and the engine is used in the Peugeot Gti, Citroen DS3 THP and maybe others - BMW didn't issue a recall and many owners had to foot a very big bill.
It seems they went back to belts but way too late for the many thousands of owners who have the Chains on their cars and will have a future bill for repairs.

If you look through any car forum you'll find common problems with almost if not all cars but some manufacturers will admit to problems and issue recalls or accept liability and repair their cars, most sadly wont.

The 1st (of 3) Triumph Street Triple motorbikes i've had suffered from a common problem with the voltage rectifier (sort of an alternator) which would kill the battery and fry itself out, this is quite common on some Hondas, etc but even now with the first of the bikes being 9 years old triumph are still recalling the bikes and fitting new rectifiers free as they admit the problem.

I have a Fiesta ST2 which has been to 2 dealers 13 times in the first 9 months for various problems which include replacing the TPMS 7 times as 1 tyre kept going down, they then replaced the alloy and then to make sure it didn't happen again the replaced the other 3 alloys and TPMS? it was the metal valves at fault and they've now started using rubber ones again but owners out of warranty are left to foot the bill.

Like you i thought VW would be a safe bet for a reliable car as i looked at the newer BMW 1 series but this has problems looking at the forums.
The last VW i had was an ED30 golf Gti - this went into limp mode and it was the charcoal canister at fault (£120 fitted) - the tech said it was because i filled the car up too often (filled tank once a month as i don't do many miles) -
The more they fit to cars to "improve" emisions, etc the more to go wrong - give me the old school 80s cars any day, just as economical, more reliable, more fun (XR2, etc) and any back street garage could fix them cheaply

[wolfie]

No worries mate.

I doubt there is a single manufacturer that doesn't have some skeletons in the cupboard. They should be holding their hands up and owning up to many inherent design/manufacturing faults. Many cars have faults, niggles or idiosyncrasies that owners live with, cars get used, things break or wear out. But some of the issues that are finding their way into cars are just rubbish design, quality or build, even a combination of all those things and simply being swept under the carpet only for the owner or second owner to pick up the bill. With modern quality procedures they will know which cars have the dodgy components that likely to fail, rather than have them checked or send out warnings it's cheaper to ignore the problem and let future owners pick up the bill. By that time the cars are old enough for them to have some wear so they can argue about the real causes of the failure. At least call a spade a spade... it's simple dishonesty, hidden behind the old cover all "It's just business"

That said there is also an element of, "if you go looking for a problem you will find it." I think most people use forums because they either have a problem or want to know how to do something. So it's easy to come across a few posts with folk with the same issue and think the problem is widespread. I'm sure the cam-chain problem affects quite a few vehicles with 1.2Tsi power plant but it's also a pretty common engine in lots of different vehicles. If it was disastrous issue I'm sure the forums would be alive with folk ranting about failures. Yes there are some, what real world numbers are it is difficult to judge.

Funny you should mention the old XR2 (had one of them) If I had the spare cash I'd buy an older classic that was less encumbered by meeting emissions and less dependant on electronic wizardry to keep it running. Something that you'd at least stand a chance of keeping on the road without plugging it into a laptop every time it threw a hissy fit.

Anyway the service manager is back from holiday Monday so will hopefully reply to my email. I won't hold my breath though.

[Parker87]

Thanks to all for some very interesting posts.
It seems that one conclusion that could be drawn is that most if not all modern cars are likely to have one or more issues, so you might as well plump for a VW as anything else.... (except that the VW dealer network's customer service record is particularly patchy ).
My approach will be to invest in the VW Extended Warranty to cover the drivetrain, and thereby avoid any mega bills (I hope!)

[wolfie]

Thanks to all for some very interesting posts.
It seems that one conclusion that could be drawn is that most if not all modern cars are likely to have one or more issues, so you might as well plump for a VW as anything else.... (except that the VW dealer network's customer service record is particularly patchy ).
My approach will be to invest in the VW Extended Warranty to cover the drivetrain, and thereby avoid any mega bills (I hope!)

I agree in part. I think if you are doing above average mileage each year it's entirely prudent to spend a few quid on an Extended warranty. However if you are doing significantly less I would expect any modern car to get to 50-60K miles without serious problems. Lets not lose sight that if a cam chain fails, it may well be a catastrophic failure that requires a new engine, running to several thousand pounds. Its not just an inconvenience of something like having an alternator or ABS sensor fail. Cam chains are listed as "Life of vehicle parts" so why should the customer pick up the bill.

Also VW have been selling cars at a premium price for years based on their reliability. Most of us can remember the "If everything were as reliable as VW" ads. And not so long a ago the "Small but tough" ad for the 9N Polo's. Or course the reality of it is quite different with VW struggling to stay in the top 10 of the past few years of reliability tests. Skoda, Kia, Suzuki, Nissan, Merc, Toyota, Volvo all do better and some of those are not considered "premium brands" but do much better. It's one thing to pay a premium if the you get long term value for money, but that doesn't seem to hold true anymore for VW in todays car market, perhaps it never was?

[Parker87]

Yes, I agree with all you say about the theory that a premium price should secure a reliable product Wolfie.
I confess that I bought my GTI without doing sufficient digging on the 'net' to find forums such as this, and was partly influenced in my decision by a vague perception that "VW's are reliable and well made" - the power of marketing to influence the naive eh!?
Now, having read about the various frailties apparent on the 6R GTI, I can only trust to luck and stump up for an extended warranty when the current arrangement expires, even though my mileage is, like yours, below average.
I have to say, though, that my car is very well suited to my needs and is very enjoyable to drive; also, my oil consumption is negligible, and everything works as it should (so far).

[wolfie]

I have to say, though, that my car is very well suited to my needs and is very enjoyable to drive; also, my oil consumption is negligible, and everything works as it should (so far).

That's the infuriating part!!

I like my Polo, It's nice to drive, comfortable, has enough pace for my needs. I think it's also a decent looking car with more than enough space for me anyway. But that's offset by the thought that the engine in particular could be problematic in the future with some significant bills attached if I want to address it's shortcomings. Even if VW play ball and sort it out of warranty, it's still hassle I can do without as I'm struggling a little with my health at the moment. Plus I've been lucky enough to own new cars for a few years and never had so many built-in or quality issues with any of them, VW really are starting to feel like an "also-ran" company in many ways. In short I really want to like the car but it's not lived up to expectations. Also salt in the wound my intension was to have this be my keeper and not look at changing for a fair few years.

I'm thinking of downsizing now due to circumstance, so I'm probably going to be looking at a CitiGo/Mii or Up at some point this year. Cheap and cheerful here I come..

[Mayhem]

In regards to the 6r 1.2 tsi and the chain stretch, its happened to me at 45k miles. Just had all work done for just over £500. Vw wanted £1200 min. Absolute joke. Wouldnt use a main dealer for anything as vw have been less than helpful tbh

[wolfie]

In regards to the 6r 1.2 tsi and the chain stretch, its happened to me at 45k miles. Just had all work done for just over £500. Vw wanted £1200 min. Absolute joke. Wouldnt use a main dealer for anything as vw have been less than helpful tbh

Ah.. Cheers.

So instead of VW holding their hand up and at least meeting part of the cost they've just milked the situation for every penny. No wonder their customer base is dwindling by the day.

Out of curiosity do you know exactly what was involved/changed when they did the chain replacement?? Parts, labour breakdown etc?

[RUM4MO]

I'm not involved with any of the early chain driven 1.2TSI engine issues, but, if you are getting the chain drive kit upgraded, it will pay to make sure that you are getting the very latest issue of what VAG has issued as it sounds like, from other VAG forums, that there is a bit of using up old kits which will not resolve that problem correctly. By the way, I don't think, for instance that VAG now replace the chain cover for one that helps keep the chain on - the root causes of the problem are now getting resolved . The repair kit has been "re-invented" quite a few times it seems!

On the subject of the ED30 Golf needing its charcoal canister replaced because the car was "being refuelled too often" - are you sure that what was said was not that that car was being "over filled with fuel" too often, as that will cause all the petrol engine cars trouble over time. I only tend to over fill if I'm then going to use at least the fuel quantity that I've forced in, typically on a long journey. I learned this out on a forum luckily - so stopped doing it unless then driving a long distance.

Edit:- I think that it is fair to say that it is entirely due to collective VAG forum "knowledge" that was allowed most people to get their problems solved FOC, in the case of the Audi use of the VAG longitudinal mounted 2.0TFSI engines, it sounds like a serious amount of customers money has been saved - though many had already paid for the repair work which was due to poor engine component choices by VAG. VAG hate "internet forum knowledge" and dismiss it - but when faced with collective customer action via the media, soon knuckle down and sort things out, just be aware that you might need to resort to that action.

Another Edit:- I've needed to put pressure on Ford at times, including recorded delivery letters when I've considered that I was being taken for a ride, and each time it ended up getting sorted out (cheques sent out to cover parts bought and fitted by me) when the warrant officer at the dealership had decided that there was no case to consider! (they even made sure that both times they had quickly disposed of the parts that I was needing replaced FOC - even though they had been told I that would be taking further action if they turned me down). Note here that each time it was for sensible early life repeated failures, not just a customer whinging about needing to spend money!

[wolfie]

I'm not involved with any of the early chain driven 1.2TSI engine issues, but, if you are getting the chain drive kit upgraded, it will pay to make sure that you are getting the very latest issue of what VAG has issued as it sounds like, from other VAG forums, that there is a bit of using up old kits which will not resolve that problem correctly. By the way, I don't think, for instance that VAG now replace the chain cover for one that helps keep the chain on - the root causes of the problem are now getting resolved . The repair kit has been "re-invented" quite a few times it seems!

LOL.. It just keeps getting better and better...

There appears to be an upgraded cam chain
03F 109 158 K

An updated chain compartment that should stop the chain jumping teeth.
03F 109 210 D (just checked the part number on my chain case and its 03F 109 210 "B" so not updated at build.

Not found the tensioner of carrier numbers as yet.

Now I'll update these part numbers should I find an "up-issued" part number. The worrying part is that these changes are not a "Fix" all they do is delay the inevitable due to rubbish design. There are quite a few sites with various nuggets of info, I'll try an collate an pointers over the next couple of days. If anyone has any additional info, please feel free to jump in.

I have to say I just feel like binning the car off for something else. It's due a major service next time so £250+ for a service and MOT, plus should I want the cam chain sorting £500 ish so that's £750+ I may as well suck it up and put the money to another vehicle. Shame really mine 5 years old with under 20K on the clock, it's the sort of car I'd be searching for second hand had I not read up on all the issues associated with the 1.2Tsi lump.

Edit:_ sorry I may have covered some of this in another thread some time ago.. Old age kicking in....

[Parker87]

I like my Polo, It's nice to drive, comfortable, has enough pace for my needs.......
.........I'm thinking of downsizing now due to circumstance, so I'm probably going to be looking at a CitiGo/Mii or Up at some point this year. Cheap and cheerful here I come..

It'd be a real shame if you gave up on your Polo, given that you like so much about it. But I'm surprised that you are thinking of buying an alternative VAG car - I'd have thought that a Honda Jazz is more likely to stand a good chance of being 'anxiety free' (or possibly any other Japanese or Korean small car?).

[RUM4MO]

wolfie, I would have thought that there will be a "repair kit" available from VAG to address all these chain issues, and I think that kit now contains new chain wheels as well as tensioner and chain, and maybe more - this is based on reading postings on the Skoda forum. Thought I might be wrong - it has been discussed quite a lot on that website, and I am talking about the 1.2TSI engine here.

Edit:- I tried the old "I'll replace your 9N Polo 1.4 16v 75PS with a new GO" - that did not go down very well, though I must say that this Polo 1.2TSI 110PS SEL bought new in August 2015 is good enough for long journeys, though that means that my "old duffer's final special car - S4" does tend to stay in the garage a lot - 60MPG or 30MPG, which car will I use? Both cars are meant to last for at least 10 years - like the previous pair did!