Wishbone bushes need replacing

[Mabbi]

Hi Everyone,

I bought a 2014 1.2 tsi 110hp SEL back in the spring. I have just taken it for the MOT and as an advisory they say both of the rear bushings on the front wishbones are beginning to split.
They probably will need replacing soon. I have read a couple of other threads on here where other SEL owners have mentioned the same problem. A couple of questions, first does anyone think I have a chance of
getting it done under the Das Welt warranty. A long shot I know.

Secondly if not under warranty can anyone recommend an alternative to the stock bushes as I don't fancy having to replace them every couple of years. I am after something a little more durable but not
race track style poly's. If anyone does know of an alternative could you also let me know what the part number will be.

The stock bushes have a couple of holes cut into the rubber and from what I have heard they are a point of weakness especially on the SEL's with their extra torque.

Thanks

[SRGTD]

Mabbi; I’ll attempt to answer your first question (apologies for the long reply!).

VW’s Das Welt Auto used car warranty is an insurance against sudden failure of electrical and mechanical ‘covered components’. The operative cover clause of this warranty (page 13 of the warranty booklet) states;

• ‘You are covered for the costs (limited to parts and labour inclusive of VAT up to the maximum claim limit) of repairing or replacing the covered components below that have suffered sudden electrical or mechanical failure occurring within the area of cover and during the period of cover’.

It goes on to state that (sudden) electrical and mechanical failure due to wear and tear is covered;

• Electrical and mechanical failure includes failure due to wear and tear for the first 100,000 miles from first registration of the covered vehicle under the Das WeltAuto Warranty section of this cover, damage by water ingress and consequential failure, limited to £5,000 per claim inclusive of VAT for the latter.

It then lists which components are and aren’t covered;

What is covered?
All electrical and mechanical factory-fitted components are covered against electrical or mechanical failure unless listed in the What is not covered? section below;

What is not covered?
Replacement parts and labour will be paid for with the following exceptions:

• Routine servicing (all parts replaced associated with routine servicing are excluded)

• All bodywork, glass (including heated) and seals

• Wear and perishable items as follows:
  - All adjustments, cambelt timing, diesel timing or cleaning Batteries
  - Brake frictional material
  - Bulbs and fuses
  - Clutch frictional material
  - Coolant pipes and hoses
  - CV boot gaiters
  - Exhaust systems including diesel particulate filters (although catalytic converters are covered for internal failure only)
  - Non-manufacturer’s original parts or second hand parts
  - Tyres and wheels
  - Unencased drive belts
  - Upholstery, interior and exterior trims
  - Washer pipes and vacuum hoses
  - Wiper blades, arms and washer jets
  - Wiring and connections (including HT leads and aerial coaxial cables)

So, for the warranty to apply,
(a) the electrical or mechanical component needs to be a covered component
(b) it needs to have suffered sudden failure.
(c) (sudden) electrical and mechanical failure due to wear and tear is covered up to 100k miles from the vehicle’s first registration date.

Although suspension bushes aren’t specifically listed as an excluded component, they are a wear and perishable item and yours are likely to have deteriorated over time, rather than suffered a sudden failure. I think VW would also maintain the suspension bushes haven’t actually failed but are showing signs of gradual deterioration - your car passed its MOT with an advisory. With this in mind, I don’t think you’ll be lucky enough to get them replaced under the Das Welt Auto warranty. There’s no harm in trying though............

https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/files/live ... ndbook.pdf

[cheba]

Secondly if not under warranty can anyone recommend an alternative to the stock bushes as I don't fancy having to replace them every couple of years. I am after something a little more durable but not
race track style poly's. If anyone does know of an alternative could you also let me know what the part number will be.

The stock bushes have a couple of holes cut into the rubber and from what I have heard they are a point of weakness especially on the SEL's with their extra torque.

From what I've heard, Golf mk4 R32/Audi TT mk1 bushings are a straight fit. These are more durable because they don't the have cutouts that the Polo 6R bushings have, instead they have a solid rubber insert: https://cdn3.volusion.com/pwajs.vdahc/v ... 1481527221

VW part number is 8N0 407 181B.

Since they were factory fitted to some cars, they shouldn't be excessively stiff.

If I needed to replace mine, I would go for this option (if I had my own garage I would have probably have done the change already just to get sharper handling).

[Mabbi]

Thanks SRGTD for the quick reply,

That is kind of what I thought, but I have very limited experience of dealing with warranties as all my previous cars have beeen a lot older.

I had consulted the warranty handbook and saw that CV boots were not covered but had noticed that wishbone bushes were not on the list
of excluded items. I realise it was a long shot and I take your point on the wear and tear aspect.

Cheers

[Mabbi]

Thanks Cheba,

I have seen a video on youtube where a guy recommends Audi TT bushes but that was for a Golf and I was not sure
they would fit a Polo. Thanks for the part number.

edited to include link to video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upRUI_Y-FN4

[RUM4MO]

My wife's August 2015 Polo SEL 1.2TSI 110PS ended up with a single rear mounting torn vertically top to bottom straight through to the inner steel bushing by the time it was 3 years old and 23K miles, as it was within warranty I got that sorted FOC - but I reckon that it had encounter one too many deep unsighted potholes!

These rear bushes have been in use on VW Group cars for many years, maybe even used on Polos before the design change that happened when 9N was launched in late 2001/early 2002.

I agree that the Audi TT one is the obvious choice, but it does not seem that VW dealers use too many of them as when my wife's car was handed in to get that replaced, they had to order one bearing in - which seems a bit silly for a part that has been in use on many platforms for years.

I did replace the console bushes on my wife's previous 9N Polo 1.4 16V with SEAT Cupra versions and that improved things and lasted for the next 8 years we owned that car, in this case, all Polos use that same "Golf type" mounting bush, so Audi TT is the way to go.

So, another annoying to job for me to do on this car within the next few years, probably better to buy new Meyle Heavy Duty bushed new front track control arms and fit new Audi TT rear bushes to them prior to fitting to the car.

Edit:- someone on the Fabia forum bought a pair of these track control arms/wishbones very cheaply from an online supplier, though he just left the fitted heavy duty bushes in.

[cheba]

So, another annoying to job for me to do on this car within the next few years, probably better to buy new Meyle Heavy Duty bushed new front track control arms and fit new Audi TT rear bushes to them prior to fitting to the car.

That's how I've been thinking about doing it, prepare new control arms with upgraded bushings (which involves some pressing work), then just rent a lift in a DIY workshop and simply switch out the entire control arms for the new ones, which shouldn't be hard to do. Too bad one can't buy the control arms without bushings.

[veteran]

Oh dear, yet another Polo shortcoming to contend with.

Actually, earlier in this topic I thought that the bushing being referred to by mabbi was the rear one of the pair that sit in a vertical plane (if you see what I mean) in the wishbones, ie. the rear one of the front/rear pair that essentially hold the wishbone to the vehicle body. But the video regarding use of an alternative, more robust bushing refers to a third one that sits - if I'm not mistaken - in a horizontal plane. So, which, on the Polo, is the one being referred to here?

I was always under the impression that, with all modern cars, it was the front/back pair that form the axis about which the wishbone flexes vertically where wear inevitably takes place, and accordingly was something that MOT testers always inspect carefully. Mind you, on my old Mk3 Golf, the original wishbone bushes were still in very serviceable condition even after nearly 25 years! It does seem nonetheless that many cars produced in more recent times are deliberately fitted with bushings of inferior quality. Incidentally, what about the front anti-roll bar bushes on these 6R/6C Polos? I thought the rubber bushes (unbonded) in those were/are a weak point in the Polo's makeup too, they being a piece of rubber that's pre-split to afford easy fitting and replacement.

In contrast to what you suggest, RUM4MO, I was always under the impression that changing wishbone bushes on virtually any modern car isn't really a DIY job, since it invariably requires the entire wishbone assembly to be removed from the vehicle (involving therefore also steering ball-joints, and an anti-roll bar in the case of the Polo) and an industrial press to be used to remove the old bushing(s) and to fix in the replacement one(s). So, if you (and other readers of this topic, including myself) have any thoughts on doing such a job in due course, how would you get around the issue of needing a press? I'd imagine that backstreet car workshops owning such a press who'd be willing to do that part of the job for you must be few and far between these days. And certainly, rentable pro-grade workshops for the DIYer are very thin on the ground in the UK. Then, of course, if you're also thinking of putting in brand new wishbones anyway, there'd be the cost of buying those wishbones as well; they're probably quite costly, even from a third-party. Post-fitting, there'd be steering alignment to check and correct if necessary, as well.

Something else that might require consideration is how, in replacing the original wishbone bush with the TT one, the steering would be affected. Would doing so have any detrimental effect on the steering/front suspension? Also, quite often you hear of DIYers who replace suspension bushings of this kind by more robust ones and then find that the extra tightness causes more roadnoise to be conducted up into the car's floor and into the car's shell generally.

Perhaps I'm being too pessimistic in my old age. Do enlighten me.

[RUM4MO]

There is always the possibility of affecting NVH when you substitute a "harder" rubber bushing so no getting away from that way of thinking, I would have thought that any "weakness" in these vertical plane bushing/mounting would have been sorted out by now as this part has been in use for many many years in VW Group cars including Golfs, so I was hoping that the failure that I found on my wife's 2015 Polo was due more to poor/bad road maintenance and not something that should be happening with the frequency that the previous 9N Polo and its chums from Skoda and SEAT with their console bushes which started life "very" voided, then changed to "just a bit" voided to address the issue with them getting torn in "normal" use.

There does seem to be a school of thought with anyone that has a Polo/Fabia/Ibiza that uses these bushings/mountings, that at the first hint of rubbery noises the culprit will be these bushings/mountings - and that is a bit annoying as VW Group changed back to this desogn of rear front wishbone mounting on these cars back in 2007ish! My daughter's late 2009 Ibiza seemed to have an intermittant uneven or curious braking issue which I had considered would be due to some loss of integrety in these bushings/mounting, but they looked okay to me and MOT person.

Replacing these bushings/mountings in these wishbones is not meant to be a nasty big job, tools are being sold online to let you change them while the wishbone is still partially attatched to the car, probably only with the front and rear bolts removed. The beauty of the solid TT versions is as usual with these solid versions, that you don't need to align them exactly in the wishbone - ie rotate them correctly.

[veteran]

RUM4MO,

For the life of me, can't think what 'NVH' stands for. Also, why the term 'console', in 'console bushes'? Sorry to be a pain, but can you, for the sake of an ignoramus such as me, explain these two terms?

[RUM4MO]

Ha Ha, and I even checked the order of these letters, so I can say you can find it in Google!

Noise Vibration and Harshness.

Edit:- Console seems to be what a lump of metal, or at least alloy is called in VW Land, so the previous Polo, well the 2002ish>2007ish 9N Polos had some cast lumps of aluminium alloy on both sides at the front, bolted to the car's body and cross member in the case of the rear one, these are always referred to as consoles - and the front part of the wishbone bolted into a console using a fore and aft horizontal bolt, as bit like the front end of these wishbones on our cars, the rear part of the wishbone had a round peg formed on it and it was pressed into a large voided rubber bush that was pressed into the console, so both ends of these 9N car's wishbones moved in a horizontal plane, or the wishbone rotated on them both with the large rear console bush being able to take some impact.

Turned out to be a complete design failure as most cars ripped up their large voided bush which needed replacing frequently and at big expense as quite a lot of garages did not fancy pressing the old bush out and a new bush in just in case they got blamed for cracking the aluminium alloy console, so they added the price of a new console complete with bush into the repair - and removing that console meant always needing a full 4 wheel realignment!! Oh, and the steel through bolts, despite being coated with a green "protective" coating, invariably ended up with that coating getting damaged during initial assembly, so the poor sods that were tasked with doing that repair could easily end up with removing the bolt complet with the alloy threads after a lot of hard work, so more time and money needed - good for the workshops though!

[cheba]

In contrast to what you suggest, RUM4MO, I was always under the impression that changing wishbone bushes on virtually any modern car isn't really a DIY job, since it invariably requires the entire wishbone assembly to be removed from the vehicle (involving therefore also steering ball-joints, and an anti-roll bar in the case of the Polo) and an industrial press to be used to remove the old bushing(s) and to fix in the replacement one(s). So, if you (and other readers of this topic, including myself) have any thoughts on doing such a job in due course, how would you get around the issue of needing a press? I'd imagine that backstreet car workshops owning such a press who'd be willing to do that part of the job for you must be few and far between these days. And certainly, rentable pro-grade workshops for the DIYer are very thin on the ground in the UK. Then, of course, if you're also thinking of putting in brand new wishbones anyway, there'd be the cost of buying those wishbones as well; they're probably quite costly, even from a third-party. Post-fitting, there'd be steering alignment to check and correct if necessary, as well.

Something else that might require consideration is how, in replacing the original wishbone bush with the TT one, the steering would be affected. Would doing so have any detrimental effect on the steering/front suspension? Also, quite often you hear of DIYers who replace suspension bushings of this kind by more robust ones and then find that the extra tightness causes more roadnoise to be conducted up into the car's floor and into the car's shell generally.

All the modern VW's I've seen (including the Polo 6R) have had the anti-roll bar link attached to the suspension strut, not the wishbone. It was not always like that my old mk3 Golf GTI had the anti-roll bar links attached to the wishbone (since the entire roll bar sits lower in the car on these older models).

Now I haven't tried it myself, but I think that removing the wishbone should be a matter of removing the two bolts going through the front and rear bushing respectively, then removing the three nuts holding the ball joint, and hopefully the wishbone is then allowed to fall downwards enough to clear the threaded pins of the ball joint so that the wishbone can slide out from the car. Some cars have two-layer (symmetrical) wishbones with the ball joint inserted between the two layers, this would probably be trickier since you would need to push the entire hub assembly outwards from the car in order to get the wishbone free from the ball joint, and this could require loosening the driveshaft also. Luckily this isn't the case with the Polo.

I checked the workshop manual and it seems I was right, there's really nothing more to it than removing those bolts and nuts and then sliding the wishbone out: https://workshop-manuals.com/volkswagen ... sion_link/

The tricky part is probably changing the busingh itself, but luckily the bush is only pressed into the steel wishbone and not the aluminum console like it was in some VW's (as RUM4MO mentioned). According to this guide: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=154137 (not Polo wishbones but the same rear bushing) a hack saw can be used to carefully make a cut through the aluminium outer frame of the old bushing so it can collapse to a smaller diameter and be knocked out of the wishbone. The new bushing can be pressed in using a vice and lube, and maybe putting the bushing in the freezer overnight before installing.

Alignment will of course be necessary afterwards.

I don't think there will be a detrimental effect on steering, it is quite a popular mod among VW owners who want to achieve sharper handling. However there may be a detrimental effect on noise levels and comfort (NVH) since they are stiffer. Personally I'd pick sharper handling over comfort anytime

EDIT: Here's a video showing the difference in stiffness between the factory bushings and the mk4 R32/mk1 TT bushings (8N0 407 181B, in this case manufactured by Meyle) on a Polo 6R: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YkmhqwifaU

[RUM4MO]

Hum, that video does indeed show how much the strut is free to move.

I thought that my wife's 2002 9N Polo was okay to drive, but as soon as I got the Cupra console bushes fitted it was a completely different car as far as how it responded to steering inputs, that was a very pleasant bonus that came with stiffer wishbone rear bushes.

[Mabbi]

Just to clear up any confusion the bushes I was talking about are the rear bushes on the front wishbones. They are the large diameter bushes that are fitted horizontally.
labelled two on this diagram.

https://goo.gl/images/UjB3Yu

I have done a bit more research since my original post and I am thinking of doing the job myself and then getting it aligned at a local tyre place.

I have the tools and the bushings can be changed without a press using a threaded rod to drive out the original and press in the new.

I know I ruled out polys in the original posting but I am now in two minds whether, if I go the DIY route, to use Powerflex poly bushes or the Audi TT/ Meyle rubber ones.
I really do not want to do this job more than once in the time I own the car and from what I understand the Powerflex bushes have a much longer life.

[veteran]

The last few postings, and in particular their included diagrams, videos and tdiforums chatter, have now clarified several things for me. So thanks to all concerned. I myself would now feel a lot more confident at swapping the rear bush for a Meyle mk4R32/mk1TT bush, should that day arrive (and by all accounts it might well, after even just a few years of running my relatively new Polo 6C 1.2). What I've been surprised by, however, is the strong similarity of the OEM Polo bush to the Meyle one. I was expecting to see a bigger difference in the rubber part, but it seems that the only real visual difference is that, on the OEM version, ie. the bush factory-fitted to Polo 6Rs and 6Cs, the rubber doesn't completely occupy the annulus. Instead, there are gaps in the rubber, and it's those that, with continual flexure of the bush, cause spreading and tearing of the rest of the rubber, weakening the entire bush. It leads me to wonder about VW's reasoning behind having those gaps. Are the gaps incorporated deliberately to give the bush a certain dynamic resilience (improving the ride comfort level), or could it be that VW otherwise found that more fully-bonded rubber transmitted an unacceptable amount of additional roadnoise up into the shell of the car? Roadnoise - a rather subjective issue amongst owners - is of concern to me, so I'll be interested to hear what mabbi and any others who are thinking of undertaking this swapout eventually find, after completing the job. As can be gleaned from that tdiclub forum, owners who also changed the front bush for poly ones regretted doing so afterward.