GTi gone (woohoo!)

[monkeyhanger]

No range anxiety issues for me. I decided that for the range offered, the ID3 would suit me for 95% of my miles without needing to charge away from home, with a realistic 220 Summer miles on the Motorway. As soon as you start chipping away at the range, the number of people it suits diminishes. When you get down to 60 usable miles on a full charge, there's very few people who are going to stomach that,because most people will regularly need to go beyond a 30 mile radius of their home. Who would buy a petrol car with a 1.5gallon tank? Not many.

As I said pensioners going to Morrisons and back a few times a week won 't mind, most others will.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.
It's feasible people will need 'one' of their cars to do more than a 30 mile radius, I get that.
But there's plenty will never stray farther than that, or will be happy for their second car not to go over that.
So, for the right price, a 60 mile ID3 will still appeal to someone doing town and school runs.
I don't get the fixation with pensioners, 60 miles between charges is still a pretty busy day!
60 miles of a busy mum running around, or a commuter, then plug in and you've got 60 miles the next day - where's the problem with that?

Let me frame the debate another way.
Do you think, for the right price, there is a market for an electric car that only does 60 miles?
I'm convinced there is, so why wouldn't an ancient ID3 be that car?

At the right price, as a second car, maybe. No-one is going to buy a used xar with a realistic 60 mile range unless they never need to go beyond it, or you'll be in a situation that for a longer journey, you'd spend almost as much time charging as driving.

I use the pensioner argument because many pensioners 75+ don't have the bottle to drive on the motorway to do a long journey, but will happily potter around locally within that 60 mile range. I have a 63 mile round trip commute, so a 60 mile range ancient leaf would be useless to me. Add into the mix people who can't charge at home and the reality of charging at your local rapid charger every day or every other day and you're onto a serious inconvenience.

Are worn batteries inefficient in charging? By that I mean, do you put a lot more in to get less out e.g. on a new battery with 60kWh capacity you end up using maybe 61kWh of electricity but down the line if it maybe only gives out 30kWh but takes significantly more than that? Don't know, presuming not.

So I suppose every car has its price, but I do think a 60 mile range EV will be very low, with a small window of buyers.

[Stuart_Rendall]

Are worn batteries inefficient in charging? By that I mean, do you put a lot more in to get less out e.g. on a new battery with 60kWh capacity you end up using maybe 61kWh of electricity but down the line if it maybe only gives out 30kWh but takes significantly more than that? Don't know, presuming not.

Another point is motors and inverters over time will exacerbate the downfalls of the battery. In normal use a motor may pull 380amps putting a safe strain on the battery but over time 410amps may be drawn from the battery causing heat and efficiency loss within both the battery, inverter and HV cables between them all. All of this combined after a few years will make for a very unattractive prospect for used car buyers less fortunate then ourselves, those who are forced to buy (in years to come) EV sh*t boxes. Especially those who were the first of their kind i.e the leaf, prius, and Zoes where components are cheaper therefor don't have as much longevity then a more premium, R&D fueled car like a Tesla.

[stevereeves]

Finally - people speaking about EVs for what there are: phenominally powerful but undeveloped, expensive & heavy vehicles that are slow to refuel (rechardge), the fuel cell will deteriorate raipdly in time with normal use and be expensive to replace. I find the almost lemming-like celebration of EVs as being the greatest things since sliced bread to be baffling and at times almost terrifying. I live in an area where people are known to speak as they find (to say the laest), I'm not orignally from around these pasts but it's an attitude i go with myself. My experience of EVs in a nutshell, admittedly scale model cars but still relevant.

About 20 years ago my brother was into R/C scale model racing cars, joined a local club who raced scratch built-cars & mostly Tamiya kits which are pretty complicated, can be adjusted & set up in so many diffrerent ways just like actual racing cars, very high performance and very advanced. Other brands are available. So looking to sell his car to trade up to a gasoline-powered (model aircraft fuel) car, as were many club members - this is relevant, he lent me his car, an electric Schumacher-era F1 Benetton Ford, to try out with the potential of my joining the club. He'd turned down the power as I was apparently "bound to crash it" (I didn't !) but also in 'full power mode' the output to the wheels was such that the tyres would quickly be destroyed due to wheelpsin from start, even 'spinning up' while the car was already moving. Also in full power mode, the car was known to twist and even snap the driveshafts - this is also relevant.

So I was handed the car (following a promise to make good any crash damage & raplace trashed tyres as he hoped to sell it) which was about 18" / 45cm long, plus mains charger and two power cells / batteries, everyone had at least 2 such power cells, which were about the size 3 matchboxes end to end. The charger was bout 8" / 10cm square & had 2 settings; trickle charge which took about 2 hours, and fast charge which was for around 45 minutes. I was asked to use the fast charge sparingly as it causes the batteries to lose effieciency quicker over time, trickle charge is much better for them.

All good then. The car was certainly quick, full power mode scale speed of 300mph apparently (!), and it really zipped around and with my careful / nervous lower power driving the power cells had a duration of about 20 minutes.

Getting back on point: how have full-size electric cars improved over the above (scaling up size, perfromance, motor & power cells,) in 20 or so years ? Answer: hardly at all. yet many people are proclaming them as a huge technological advance.

For short journeys they are probably fines, but for longer trips, say 60-mile round trips, I think there will be a lot of worried drivers looking for charging points. And it isn't as if anyone can 'fill them to the brim' for an a even longer journey, possibly at night where one may not find a charge point, and likely wouldn't wish to stop.

So far, the infrastructure of refueling / charge points isn't there yet, for either home charging or 'out in the field'. This assumes a public charge point A) works B) has a good output & C) will accept your car. Last year I noticed a local petrol station had added 2 electric charge points so I had a look. Amongst the info it stated (words to the effect of) "this charge station will only recharge Vauxhall & Renault EVs", I forget the actual brands but there were only 2 of them, and neither was VW. Points seemingly forgotten, or not considered, are if a car is on charge and the cable leads, say, from a house across a drive to the car, are of not only the odd prankster unplugging the car 'for a laugh' but of the actual cable getting stolen. Locally there are often spates of pernsioners' bungelows' electricity being disconncted from the mains as lowlifes were stealing some of the actual mains cable form outside the building via the access panel. A policeman told me that just 2ft or so of this cable would realise £5 or so from a scrap dealer.

I could go on and on but I won't (!).

To conclude I decided model R/C racing wasn't for me and my brother sold his F1 Benetton Ford elsewhere. The reason being both he, and many club members, were selling their electric R/C cars were because they were changing over the gasoline / aircraft fueled class of racing. This was two fold - on a typical 3 -4 hour club night of racing they would get more actual racing than in gasoline cars than with the electic cars, where more time was spent more time in the pits with battreries on charge, many club members had 3 or 3 such power cells in their toolbox. The gasoline cars can obviously be refueled and be good to race again in about 2 minutes. The other reason is, with batteries being mostly inevitably fast-charged, they tended to 'die' quicker, replacements being expensive not including replacing the electric motor. Fuel tanks tend not to 'wear out'.

So, electric vehicles then: now for short-ish journeys - maybe. For the future: probably in medium to far future but there will need to be an almost qauntum leap in technology for them to become maintstream....

[Stuart_Rendall]

I see the points you make stevereeves, however they are somewhat out dated and these things have to be looked at relative to the environment they will be used. In the world of RC cars batteries are made small and lightweight as in most uses they will be used for short sprint races or to show off to friend however in vehicles they need to be large and as lightweight as possible.

Large has already been achieved in terms of dimensions but battery capacity is evolving every day. The automotive industry has billions pumping into EV tech which has caused there to be a rapid advance in how good these things are. And relative to everything else in the automotive world us normies won't see the massive benefits until they trickle down. If we look at hyper cars of the past that did 0-60 in a whopping 4 seconds and went on to do 180mph back in the 80's/90's (before my time) these were considered toys of people who were wealthy, however now look at cars like the Golf R and Mercedes A45s which are daily hatchbacks that do it all for normal people like ourselves. With time the performance and efficiency will be available.

Back to the point if we look at vehicles like the Tesla Model X and their new Roadster, claiming good figures for range and charge times, this means that in 5 years time the potential to go to your local VW, Vauxhall, Ford, whoever it may be you will probably find an affordable electric vehicle under 30k that will have a usable range of 500miles+ and charge from 20% to 80% in 10minutes. Might seem wild now but it is increasingly likely. And with this advancement will also come better battery protection tech that will allow a battery to last 250,000 miles before needing replacement or maybe the possibility of replacing single cells will be likely.

With this surge in charging there will be requirements for a quicker cycle of people in and out of a charge station. More people = more profit so the demand is there and it will happen. This will mean cost of charging (if charging at public chargers) will cost the same as fueling up (thanks to the wonderful tax) due to the nature of it but it will also mean you will he stopped for 5-10mins when necessary.

I myself work somewhere where we make prototype electric vehicles for the big Tier 1 OEM's in the automotive industry and having access to the inside knowledge I can say with confidence in the following 5-10 years there is going to be a huge shift. This is why I am holding on to my dinosaur powered cars for now because I know the pros and cons will soon tip in the opposite direction and make petrol/diesel cars pointless.

[stevereeves]

Hear what you are saying and the situation I mentioned WAS 20 years ago, many R/C fans had high capacity / high power / quick charge cells, the ones my brother used were 'standard' for R/ C vehicles, not 'race cells'. The R /C car club is still in existence, btw and still mostly use gasoline cars (forget the actual term but 'glo-plug' engines, similar to 2-strokes) unless they are indoor winter events in a school gym, when it's electric cars. I'm still not convinced re; full-size EVs, however. In my case, work is currently 1.6 miles way and I cycle due to not trusting leaving my car there all day, but my commutes used to be 52, 60ish, & 100ish miles, sometimes further with outside trips to ther sites during the day. At those distances, with current EV range + random stop / start trafic plus regular, random detours due to road works, accidents, etc extending the journey a lot of which was countryside I'd sweating on making it home. I also make fortnighly or more 70-ish mile round trips to help / visit elderly realatives & similar 6 monthly trips to / from Scotland, circa 450 miles each way. Another personal consideration is my garage is 300ish yds away from our house and if I gave it up, no chance as I sometimes don't see my car for a couple of days, don't ive in an 'iffy' area I just don't trust clumsy drivers the nearest I can park is about still 100yds away, around houses not just across a pavement. I also cannot emphasise enough how reliable, ready to go transport has been esesentiaal at times due to, literally, life & death situations which have cropped up often in the early hours, not moaning btw, sometimes such things happen in life. I cannot imagine someone needing our help and us being unable to go as our mode of transport wasn't 'good to go' 24/7 due to possible fueling or range issues, not just talking about elderly folk either. Annoyingly & coincedentally, heard on local news a dozen or so bungalows were 'hit' again tonight, electric cables were literally were ripped out so folk with no electricity and likely not until tomorrow morning, police attended but the lowlifes were naturally long gone, likely next-to-nothing would happen to them if caught. EVs: I realise I've probably argued a case 'against' but currently they are not for me, at least not for quite a while even then the technology will need to be developed & improved a heck of a lot.

One further thing, not trying to upstage (really) but I work for an organistion where, like you it was before my time, demo the internet (whatever happened to the internet ?!) LASER technology, mobile phones, etc. Really can't mention about exciting future technology I've witnessed / heard about at close hand - sadly not UFO technology, Warp Drive systems, Tractor Beams, blasters or lightsabers, nor EVs. To say anymore would get me in serious trouble, in any case I don't work in t R&D dept so couldn't explain how stuff works anyhoo, but the future from wh I've seen or heard about should be, interesting. [had text editor issues].

One final thing (promise). I was disappointed the first time I watched Formula E electric racing when stopping for a pit stop, the drivers simply swapped cars, thought they woulld have been able to make it to the end of the race, with, say, diminishing power, or such....

[Stuart_Rendall]

I suppose EV's aren't yet for you specifically with demanding mileage, but even with current cars maintaining that mileage will definitely hurt your pocket if you were to finance and fuel a newer car one way or another. I used to do a 60mile round journey commute to work but luckily work from home 4 of the 5 days a week now so an electric car would suffice for me easily. You mention people ripping cables out too, a house uses standard domestic power at 240V 50Hz, 30-60Amps. You must seriously need that crack money if you are willing risking touching that. And in the case of EV charging if you have a wall mounted charger, the car will lock the charger in the port so both ends are secured, making it almost impossible to yank the charger out.

Another think you mentioned was on your commute there was regular stop start traffic. In this scenario electric trumps combustion. When stationary in an EV your consumers are the only thing drawing electricity however in an ICE your engine is using fuel to idle and your consumers are drawing electricity and your car has to work harder to put that energy back into your 12V battery.

In the real world EV's are best used at speed below 40 where you may stop regularly and that is where they are most efficient and petrol/diesel vehicles are best at 50-70 in 6th/7th gear cruising at a constant speed. Not to say EV's aren't a fantastic option for motorways and carriageways though, as they are still more efficient the ICE's.

And I see what you mean with Formula E. We were the inverter and motor module supplier for BMW for many years and invited to a few races and I still find Formula 1 much more interesting. In any case however for your situation living with an EV might just be too much of a pain right now, but in years to come i'd expect it to be the same as your current ICE except you won't have Greta Thunberg rallying at your door with pitchforks and sweaty armpit people.

[monkeyhanger]

Lots of reading there over the weekend.

Steve reeves- Tamiya RCs are not comparable to modern EVs (I have a Tamiya Bigwig). The Lithium based batteries are more sophisticated and (for most marques).have thermal management to warm them up from a cold start on a cold day and keep them moderately warm in use.

Unlike Andy, despite having 2 EVs, I'm not going to be gushing over them - upping the pros and brushing cons under the carpet.

Right now, unless you can do the vast majority of charging at home, don't bother, really don't bother. Fuelling at 1/10th the cost of diesel at the convenience of overnight charging on my drive was the biggest draw for me. If you're having to do all your charging elsewhere, it's the price of diesel per mile and massively inconvenient.

Prices are approaching parity in some places - my ID3s cost around the same as a Golf GTD, with same performance and more interior room. The realistic 220 motorway miles/250.miles around the doors in the Summer will do me for 90% of my miles.

If you're used to weighing over £300pm for a Polo GTI and maybe £150pm in petrol, you can easily afford an ID3 if you charge at home and pay coppers for your fuel.

The instant torque is great in every situation - you're never in the wrong gear. No tramping when you pull away seriously quick 0-30mph, just instant pick-up in all situations.

I'll soon be going beyond my range - 350 miles trip down to Southampton from Newcastle, then drive up to London for a few days, Inc Watford for the kids to go to Warner Bro (Harry Potter) studios, then back to Newcastle from there. So I've probably got 3 or 4 external charges ahead of me.

EVs love congestion and slower speeds. I average 3.7 miles per kWh (215 mile range) sat at 75mph on the motorway, with the aircon on. When roadworks make you drop to 50mph, it's more like 4.5 miles per kWh (battery has 58 usable kWh capacity for motion).

Battery longevity? Not sure of the influences of time and distance, do they deteriorate slowly then fall off a cliff at 10-12 years old? Unsure, but the worst case 30% deterioration at 8 years as per warranty is semi-reassuring. For most people charging at home must of tge time, I'm expecting it to be less than half of that, although I doubt I'll keep ours more than 5 years.

If more than 200 miles round trip is a huge rarity and you can charge at home go for it. If not, keep hold of your ICE.

[Andy Beats]

Unlike Andy, despite having 2 EVs, I'm not going to be gushing over them - upping the pros and brushing cons under the carpet.

I prefer to think I debunk a lot of preconceived nonsense.
You can see it here, people thinking cables can just be pulled out of a car being one....
I can see the temptation to meddle with cables from drunk passers by though, this is why I like the front charging port of my Leaf.
Parked nose into the garage and with my 'check' cut in the garage frame for the cable, would take a very eagle-eyed passer by to even notice it's charging.
Side ports are just pandering to ICE familiarity and I really don't like'em.

[monkeyhanger]

Unlike Andy, despite having 2 EVs, I'm not going to be gushing over them - upping the pros and brushing cons under the carpet.

I prefer to think I debunk a lot of preconceived nonsense.
You can see it here, people thinking cables can just be pulled out of a car being one....
I can see the temptation to meddle with cables from drunk passers by though, this is why I like the front charging port of my Leaf.
Parked nose into the garage and with my 'check' cut in the garage frame for the cable, would take a very eagle-eyed passer by to even notice it's charging.
Side ports are just pandering to ICE familiarity and I really don't like'em.

I just think most EV owners really do brush the cons under the carpet, and there's some undeniable huge cons, especially for those without the means to charge at home. They play those down a lot because nearly everyone who has an EV already does charge at home.

The ID3 has an ACC sensor right where you'd expect VW to put a front facing charge point, I'm presuming that's why it's on the side, like a Golf. Maybe it's a safety focussed design to avoid exposing the electrical connection components in the case of a frontal impact (which is much more common than a side impact)?.

[Andy Beats]

I just think most EV owners really do brush the cons under the carpet, and there's some undeniable huge cons, especially for those without the means to charge at home. They play those down a lot because nearly everyone who has an EV already does charge at home.

The ID3 has an ACC sensor right where you'd expect VW to put a front facing charge point, I'm presuming that's why it's on the side, like a Golf. Maybe it's a safety focussed design to avoid exposing the electrical connection components in the case of a frontal impact (which is much more common than a side impact)?.

There are plenty of EV owners already manage just fine without home charging, it's far from a necessity if you're determined to have an EV.
Nissan has the front radar too, so it can't be blocking that that's an issue.
Side ports are such a pain and I'm not looking forward to the wife's EV having one.
All your other points are maybe valid, but I still think the major driving force is pandering to ICE owners.

[monkeyhanger]

I just think most EV owners really do brush the cons under the carpet, and there's some undeniable huge cons, especially for those without the means to charge at home. They play those down a lot because nearly everyone who has an EV already does charge at home.

The ID3 has an ACC sensor right where you'd expect VW to put a front facing charge point, I'm presuming that's why it's on the side, like a Golf. Maybe it's a safety focussed design to avoid exposing the electrical connection components in the case of a frontal impact (which is much more common than a side impact)?.

There are plenty of EV owners already manage just fine without home charging, it's far from a necessity if you're determined to have an EV.
Nissan has the front radar too, so it can't be blocking that that's an issue.
Side ports are such a pain and I'm not looking forward to the wife's EV having one.
All your other points are maybe valid, but I still think the major driving force is pandering to ICE owners.

Surely you've got to admit that having an EV that you can't charge at home is a PITA, unless you have charging at work. Having to drive to your nearest fast charger and wait around for half an hour (assuming that it's unoccupied and working), then drive back home is incredibly inconvenient. The alternative is to plug in at the local Tescos for an hour every single day for some 7kWh charging.

If you are doing fast charging (outside Scotland), you'll be paying upwards of 30p per kWh and paying diesel prices for your miles, negating the one big advantage to having an EV (potential running costs).

I just don't get why almost all EV Protagonists play down the inconvenience and cost of running an EV for those who are reliant completely on public chargers. You've really got to be determined to have one to overcome those barriers. Of course, most of those protagonists won't suffer those inconveniences and costs, so easy to preach that it's not a bother.

[Andy Beats]

Surely you've got to admit that having an EV that you can't charge at home is a PITA, unless you have charging at work. Having to drive to your nearest fast charger and wait around for half an hour (assuming that it's unoccupied and working), then drive back home is incredibly inconvenient. The alternative is to plug in at the local Tescos for an hour every single day for some 7kWh charging.

Plenty of people manage.
I'd manage fine, I've got several park and rides near me with rapids or trickles.
And I'd only have to use either once a week.
Of course it's easier charging at home, but it certainly wouldn't be the PITA you suggest where I live.

[monkeyhanger]

Of all the people I've conversed with on a few EV forum, only one doesn't charge at home, and he sorely regrets getting an EV. Your situation of having free EV chargers all over the place isn't really representative of most of the UK who could or would buy an EV.

[Andy Beats]

Of all the people I've conversed with on a few EV forum, only one doesn't charge at home, and he sorely regrets getting an EV. Your situation of having free EV chargers all over the place isn't really representative of most of the UK who could or would buy an EV.

They're not free here, haven't been since June 2020
But they are everywhere in Aberdeen, and we're renowned as pretty poor for EV charging (a reluctance with Aberdonians to reject oil for obvious reasons).
Dundee in particular is miles better with a fancy new charging hub and kerbside charges everywhere (and Leaf electric taxis).
We can only go by our own locale and if you say public charging isn't great where you are, I could equally say that isn't representative.
I still maintain that for people who want to do so, running an EV without a home charger is do-able.

[stevereeves]

Should point out I work with, as opposed to 'in', I.T. / electroncs, I mostly got out of that field a time ago. Stealling cabe from bungalows is 'small beer' in some parts, I was informed by the groundsman that a footie match was cancelled due to 'floodlight failure'; he wasn't wrong the cable was literally chopped through using either an axe or chainsaw (I know !). The sleeving, miles of it, was found in an apparently empty house, in an area with few crime issues, along with 6 or 7 6ft diameter wooden reels that had been wheeled from an industrial estate. My point is that with more EVs, such lowlifes will be rubbing their hands with glee at acquiring the charge cables. Thing is, de-sleeved cable can be sold at scrappies, for cash, no questions asked, same with catalytic convertors, not supposed to be, but it is. Strange world we live in....