Gearboxes, gear oil, and levels

[alexperkins]

Some interesting reading there

Just to add, the OE stuff colour wise is the same as the febi. I’ve got a bottle of both in my workshop as had some left over from another job for a customer

[veteran]

There's only one thing that concerns me about the Febi product and that's that, despite Febi telling me that it's the same as the OEM, the compliance with G-052-527 is not stated on the container (at least, not the containers I've seen). Other VW specs are printed on the container but not the G-052-527. So, I just wonder whether the Febi tech contact was fully up-to-speed on that aspect. It would surely be daft to not state on the container that it meets (or even maybe exceeds) G-052-527, when that's arguably the most important guide to the product's suitability to VW and other gearboxes?

[alexperkins]

I spoke to febi about that (forgot to update the thread) and the reason it doesn’t have the latest part number is the G052527A2 is a supersession of the previous number but it’s a direct replacement for the old number (I’ll confirm when I get on ETKA next what it used to be) and the febi bottles in circulation have already been produced and labelled and won’t be updated till they product a new batch.

Their part matcher however has been updated to match the new VW oil part number to the 21829 febi oil

[veteran]

I've just been looking around various parts of Febi's website(s), trying to find a tie-up of 21829 with the OEM product and also with my particular Polo. Despite what you might have been told by Febi recently, alex, their website doesn't appear to be fully updated yet in this regard. That said, if you look here:

https://partsfinder.bilsteingroup.com/e ... febi/21829

then, under 'OE Comparison', you can plainly see that, for Product 21829, the VW specification G 052 527 A2 is included in the quite long lists. It's my understanding that only the first seven characters are relevant; the A2 is something to do with the quantity and/or the packaging. So, there you are, 21829 does comply with G 052 527.

This doesn't tell us whether the OEM product is also coloured yellow, though. However, if you yourself, alex, have recently been able to compare the colours of some small quantities of 21829 and of the factory-fill and found them to be the same, then that would seem to wrap it up.

What's a bit weird is that, if on that webpage, you scroll down to the 'Used In Vehicles' section, then my vehicle: Polo 6C, engine CJZC, TSI 16v 66(90), 1.2, Petrol Hatchback, 02.2014-onward isn't listed. But maybe that's simply because that part of the webpage still hasn't been updated to reflect all the Polo variants introduced in the period between 2014 and now? Or at least, I hope that's the case!

I couldn't quite get a handle on what you were saying. I think, by 'supersession', you must mean 'a superseding of'. Right? Effectively, 'replacement'. But if it's a replacement, then VW would have come up with a completely new number. Surely, these different numbers refer to a specification existing from a certain date - and that only. If it moves to a new number, then the specification (ie. the make-up of the oil) must have changed. The numbers just roll on, as the product is improved. But you surely wouldn't release a product with new, improved attributes by giving it a description that refers to an earlier specification number!?

[alexperkins]

A2 is relevant to the quantity. It signifies a 500ml bottle in this instance. As previous VW oils of various types have been A1, B3 etc denoting different quantities

Their website is often a little behind matching the vehicle type. The febi Live system is more up to date and supports reg and vin lookup

[veteran]

Ah, that's interesting. Didn't know that, about the A2.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

It was around 1st November when I decided to write to three different companies that sell gearbox oil - Febi Bilstein, Fuchs, and Comma

Febi Bilstein do not develop nor make their own oils. They merely pick and choose existing brews, and have them repackaged as their own.

Comma are without doubt the biggest fraud in lubricants - and their business practice is truly shocking.

You actually missed the three crucial major gearbox lubricants manufacturers: BP/Castrol, Shell, and Exxon-Mobil (Esso). These three between them are responsible for over 95% of all transmission lubricants - both manual and auto. Two notable exceptions in VAG usage: Statoil is a scandinavian oil company who developed created and supply oil for the Haldex traction control device; and Pentosin - a german oil company who created the brew for the six-speed DSG.

Most of you will know that VW put their own formulation of GL-4 oil into the gearbox at the factory

Not quite correct. Whilst it is true that VW Group have their own formulation, and crucially their own specification, they quite simply categorically do NOT recognise GL4. Indeed, for nigh-on thirty years, VW-Audi Group have totally dismissed and ignored all American lubricants standards. For engine oils, they use the European ACEA standards as a base specification, but then crucially, add their own additional sets of standards. The most simplest examples are the extreme pressure (EP) requirement in the 505.01 and 506.01 for PD diesels, or the extended long life requirement in the 503.00 for petrol and 506.00 for diesel, or the enhanced (and extremely stringent) 'high temperature, high sheer' (HTHS) in the 503.01 developed initially for the Audi B5 RS4, or the 504.00 standard for direct injection petrol engines, or the 507.00 standard for diesels with DPF.

Gearbox oils are usually developed as a 'one of a kind' formulation. Their lead specification is created by the original gearbox manufacturer (Getrag, Borg Warner, ZF, Riccardo, etc), and is then fine tuned for specific operating requirements by the individual vehicle manufacturers. Crucially, this one of a kind formulation categorically means that you can NOT use a 'one type fits all' gearbox lubricant as sold in the likes of Halfrauds, A1 Motorstores, etc, and also of vital note - motor factors (especially the shocking Euro Carp Pharts!). For modern transmission fluids, the best possible advice is to just go straight to the trade parts counter of your main dealer.

I am still gobsmacked that 21st century folks are still referring to a pathetically archaic Yankee transmission oil specification which was developed in the early 20th century for OPEN gearboxes with wiggly dipsticks and leather oil seals! But hey, that's the arrogance of the Americans!

So, in principle, any third-party gearbox oil added after the vehicle's left the factory, has to, as a minimum, meet this specification.

Not at all. That is like saying it is the tail which wags the dog!!! Quite simply, it is the person, professional or otherwise, who has to ensure the oil meets the EXACT specification requirement of the OEM, rather than 'chancing' that a 2nd tier, or even worse, a 3rd tier oil company has been honest about suitability.

The sorts of questions I put to these companies were:

1) Does their own product conform to, or even exceed, G-052-527?
2) How does their own product compare, in other respects, to the high-performance, longlife gear oil that VW puts into the current Polos at the factory, ie. the G-052-527 oil?
3) What other differences are there, eg. added dyes?
4) Given that, in recent years, the viscosity of this oil has been significantly lowered, how are the resultant issues relating to leakages and noise being addressed?

Other than mere curiosity, why the four questions? The only point which bears any relevance is number one - and crucially, if any oil company claims they have a product which does meet the VW specification should also be able to supply documentary proof that it does categorically meet said VW standard. No excuses, no waffle.

And to be pedantic - G 052 527 is NOT a VW specification. It is merely a VW Group OEM part number for a product they supply which meets their own specification. Just like VW Group use 'EAxxx' to nomenclate engine families, VW Group use a very specific nomenclature to designate their standards for fluids (coolant, hydraulic fluids, lubricants, etc) - and unless I am mistaken, for the part number you quoted, the VW specification, correctly titled 'VW norm' will be 'TL 525 27' (sometimes written TL 525.27).

Just to remind everyone -

Febi markets a retail product referred to as 'Gearbox Oil 21829'.
Fuchs's product is called 'Titan Sintofluid SAE 75W-80'.
Comma's relevant product is 'MVMTF Plus 75W'.

All three fall into the retail price category of £9 - £13 per litre.

I would NOT recommend any of those. You simply play Russian roulette with your gearbox, because NONE of them will have been officially certified by VW to meet the required VW norm.

None of the companies answered my questions fully.

That does not surprise me at all. None of those have any expertise in transmission fluid R&D.

And actually, although Fuchs initially acknowledged my enquiry (saying that they'd never heard of G-052-527!) that was the last I heard from them. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions from that.

At least they were honest! I trust that confirms to all that Fuchs are not a transmission oil developer. They simply blend from their own supplies of base stocks and additives - and this is the crucial bit - if they are an official lubricants SLA partner of the gearbox manufacturer, they will have the exact 'recipe' from the tranny manufacturer to meet the required standard. However, if not - just like all non-partner oil companies, to put it crudely, will simply be winging it in the hope that comes somewhere close to the required VW norm.

Febi replied that 21829 was the same as the OEM product. But they also said, "It shouldn't be thinner than G-052-527". But I never maintained it was. Irrespective, their comment doesn't really address the general mistrust surrounding the thinness of these oils now. They said they didn't know if the VW factory-fill was dyed or not. I was highly surprised at that.

Unless Febi can provide documentary proof that it is certified by VW, and therefore is "the same as the OEM product", I would treat their credibility to that particular comment with the same credibility as the remainder of their reply!

Comma were the most forthcoming. They said that MVMTF Plus 75W meets with the VW specification G-052-527. Comma said that their product had been thoroughly tested (by whom?) and found to offer the requisite performance. Comma continued by stating that they couldn't comment on the additives used by VW but that they (Comma) used their own additives to give minimal friction and the required level of protection. Thinning the oil offered increased fuel efficiency and also helped meet the requirements of current environmental legislation. They said that it was common to find the OEM product priced significantly higher, but that some consumers were happy to pay that premium. Their closing advice was to always use a gearbox oil with proven adherence to the leading specification.

They are well known amongst professionals of peddling pure bullsh!t. They truly are the scum of 'oil companies'. I emphasise 'oil company' - quite simply because they are NOT an oil company - a 'chemicals product re-supply' is the best way to describe them. They have zero OEM contracts for R&D. Their 'expertise' is quite simply sponsorship - they very aggressively target sponsorship deals - with third tier vehicle manufacturers (such as Caterham - who fundamentally purchase in long-established engines [read: old technology] and other major components from the likes of Ford, or specialist engine tuners), or motor racing series - in the hope they can hoodwink gullible folks into thinking their own oil brews are used by said makers or race cars.

I am honest that I do not know one way or the other if Caterham fill their meccano kit cars with Comma. However, I am 100% confident that Comma oils are NOT used internally in the engines and transmissions of some specific and crucial race car series. Formula Palmer Audi - despite being 'prime sponsored' by Comma, categorically prohibited Comma oils usage. The same prohibition is applied to all of the VW-branded Audi-developed engines used in all series of Formula 3. In FPA, they only use Mobil 1, and in F3, they mainly use Castrol Formula RS.

I'm still in two minds as to whether to get the OEM product in due course. But other than that, it's a clear choice between the Febi oil and the Comma oil. Instead of replacing the entire lot in the Spring, I might instead just drain off a litre or so, then top up with some new, clean stuff. The next time I'm at my local VW dealer's, I'll ask them their price for the oil and whether it's dyed or not.

You pays your money, and you make your choice.

I endorse your desire to care for your gearbox - and then I hang my head in dispair that you are even contemplating anything other than the best possible oil.

And lose the hang-up on wether it is dyed or not!


Happy to debate, and further enlight.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I've just been looking around various parts of Febi's website(s), trying to find a tie-up of 21829 with the OEM product and also with my particular Polo. Despite what you might have been told by Febi recently, alex, their website doesn't appear to be fully updated yet in this regard. That said, if you look here:

https://partsfinder.bilsteingroup.com/e ... febi/21829

then, under 'OE Comparison', you can plainly see that, for Product 21829, the VW specification G 052 527 A2 is included in the quite long lists. It's my understanding that only the first seven characters are relevant; the A2 is something to do with the quantity and/or the packaging. So, there you are, 21829 does comply with G 052 527.

Genuinely worrying. How on earth can they claim it meets the shockingly varied array of VW-Audi Group part numbers (and therefore their very individual specification requirements), and also meet Sh!troën and [s]Vulva[/s] Volvo? (I have ignored Ford, because they fitted the VAG 1.9 TDI PD and its associated gearbox into their Ford Galaxy).

[Teutonic_Tamer]

A2 is relevant to the quantity. It signifies a 500 ml bottle in this instance. As previous VW oils of various types have been A1, B3 etc denoting different quantities

Correct. The VAG parts numbering system - with specific regards to fluids and lubricants - their alpha-numeric suffix has nothing to do with product revision. It refers to pack sizes - so for transmission lubricants specifically: A1 (or B1, C1, etc) refers to a 500ml pack, A2 (or B2, C2 . . ) is a 1 litre pack, A4 (B4 . . . etc) are typically 20 litre cubes, and A6 etc suffix will typically be a 60 litre steel drum. The A, B etc has historically referred to a change in packaging type - A was for the white plastic bottles, and B was for the identical product in the newer grey plastic bottles.

Transmission oil product specification supercession is the domain of the first three numbers. As an example, if G 052 527 A2 were to be replaced by a new specification for the same fundamental application, its part number would change to G 055 527 A2. Should the spec change for a third time, it would be G 060 527 A2.


The suffix change for revision is just for mechanical parts, and will usually be just a single letter.

[JiSingh1]

Sorry to revive this - just wondering on brand opinions and if it matters?

I've had MANNOL oil put in my replacement (used) gearbox, £23 for 3 litres as it should take 2.3l I believe but only took 2??

It's got the same specs as the original oil, recommended of course, not approved but seems to match the original G052527 spec.

The gearbox is notchy and struggles to engage gears sometimes, and I'm not sure if it's the oil, the synchros, or the selector.


The oil and selector are the easiest to do I guess but would I benefit from changing to OEM or FUCHS? Or would it be the same since it's the same specs?

Thanks

[alexperkins]

Use genuine oil, mannol is not good for gearbox oils

[JiSingh1]

Use genuine oil, mannol is not good for gearbox oils

For real?
What about Fuchs or Febi?

Genuine oil seems to be £50 a litre or so.

Considering I just spent £23 only on 3l of Mannol, that price difference seems unjustified considering it meets the spec recommendations... but I'm unsure.

Thanks

[alexperkins]

It’s a tough one. Fuchs and Febi are significantly better than Mannol but they aren’t approved, they only meet the standard

Have a look on eBay - you can often get genuine on there for a fair bit less than the dealer

[alexperkins]

Take a look at Ravenol. They are one of the few oil producers that meet and exceed alot of the unique VAG standards

[JiSingh1]

Take a look at Ravenol. They are one of the few oil producers that meet and exceed alot of the unique VAG standards

I just thought if these oils are made to the same specs, that there would be no difference between brands? Like they are made to VW specs, so technically speaking there should be no difference, right?

Anyway for 3 litres:
Mannol 8104 - £23
Febi 21829 - £36
Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID FE SAE 75W - £36
RAVENOL MTF-3 SAE 75W - £50
Original VW oil: £140

Cheapest prices I can find right now.

They all meet 52 171, 52 178, 52 512, VW TL 726 spec.
APART from Ravenol which doesn't have 52 178.