EA211 Oil Catch can

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Le_Combattant
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EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by Le_Combattant »

Hey fox,

After many years of troubleshooting why my engine is running rough on cold day and why I have some missfire, I took, fews days back, the decision to remove the intake manifold to check
my intake valves.

And with no surpise, they are full of carbon build up thanks to direct injection.
With the older port injection, valves were cleaned with fuel and with time, stay clean.

Pictures of my engine (Cylinder 1 and 2):
PXL_20240213_101922241.jpg
PXL_20240213_101922241.jpg (2.93 MiB) Viewed 1446 times
PXL_20240213_101953006.jpg
PXL_20240213_101953006.jpg (2.43 MiB) Viewed 1446 times
For info, this car is my daily. Running only on premium fuel and premium oil (0W30 Shell), changes every 10000 km.
Only highway, almost no city.

I have to fix an appointment with a specialist to clean this crap.

But, now I'm looking to avoid/reduce this ammount of crap for the futur.

An Oil Catch Can seems prettry obvious. But because EA211 engines are not made for sport/racing car, there is no official kit like the 2.0 TSI.

This engine have a PCV installed on the bottom.

But depending on the pressure ratio, oil vapour will be sent or in the intake manifold, or in the low pressure side of the turbo.

-At idle (low speed)/engine off: non return valve on the intake manifold open. On the turbo low pressure side, it close.
-At high speed (boot demand): non return valve on the intake manifold close. On the turbo side, it open.
Capture.PNG
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So I'm hesitating for the installation: turbo or intake manifold side.

I'm considering mainly turbo side because on this engine your are driving mainly on torque and so, turbo pressure.

My idea is simple and it's like this kit (from brasil):
Capture1.PNG
Capture1.PNG (405.63 KiB) Viewed 1446 times
Bought an other foam hose (between engine over head to turbo) cut the hose in the middle and keep the two VW connector and install rubber hose between each connector to the oil catch can.
2226
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by 2226 »

I have been going over this exact thing for a long time now and revisited the whole PCV setup over the past few days.
Just so strange that this post shows up a day later. :)

During my oil change in December, also suspecting heavy carbon build up (have another post about thousands of recorded misfires), I ran a can of CRC GDI and turbo cleaner through the engine. This is about 20% PEA (polyetheramine), 30% diesel fuel #2, and other propellants. On initial run, nothing seemed to change. However, over the next few days things change dramatically. My misfire count has dropped to near nothing, and the smoothness and power from the engine has returned. Actually, it was the most powerful the little 1.2 has ever felt since I bought it. From now on every service will include a can of CRC GDI cleaner ... because clearly diesel is better for petrol cars. :D

Back to the catch can. I like the Mann+Hummel Provent 2 setup. I'd like to get one sometime; just broke as sin and literally close to total failure does not help.
Here are my thoughts on this so far.

Leave the valve cover breather where it is. This is your fresh air intake. I don't suspect this vents too much crankcase gases. You can confirm this by looking inside the air filter housing. There's much less gunk in there than in the charge pipe leading to the throttle from the turbo. It is not zero though, but I think this depends on how much excess pressure is in the crankcase.

The crank vent at the side of the valve cover is not only for crankcase gases. It is fuel vapour as well. Follow the line down to the throttle body and you will see a t-piece directing the fuel vapour coming from the solenoid valve. I would probably split this from the PCV system and give it its own one-way port into the turbo intake. Or effectively join it to that turbo pipe after the valve cover outlet. There is another turbo inlet pipe available that makes this simple, but that's another $100 expense.

Doing that will free up the existing turbo intake for just oil vapour.

I suspect there is not much boost pressure in effect when at highway steady cruising speeds (reasonable speeds, that is). The intake port will therefore be drawing in all the gases.
I think if you're a city driver you will constantly be in pressure mode (stop/start, many gear shifts and accelleration), making the turbo intake the prime target. The 2 valves will constantly be switching but these cars need boost.
Picking one is tuning for one.
Perhaps it is best to target both.

And by that I mean the following.
Change the catch can inlet/outlet to open T-piece connections.
On the catch can inlet, feed in the oil separator vent hose and the side valve cover vent hose.
On the catch can outlet, run hoses to the turbo intake and the intake manifold valve.
This means there is no messing with the standard one-way valves. The gas still drawn to the highest vacuum signal possible.

A question I am left with now is system response due to newly introduced hose lengths. At the same time, many catch cans have been successful using these longer hoses with no adverse operating effects. It's just that you want the system responding to vacuum properly at each port in order to avoid that top fresh air valve doing the venting.

Another thing worth looking at is improving the oil extraction efficiency of the oil separator.
This could possible be done using the stainless steel pot scourer trick many have used on other setups.
Using a stainless steel pot scourer will increase the size of the surface on which oil can accumulate.
There are several chambers in the separator. I feel like the best chamber for this is the first one after the first swirl pot. Although filling the 2nd swirl pot might make a difference too.
This must be packed in loosely to avoid increase back pressure and avoid any possible clogging.

It's an old trick used to get better filtering from a catch can.
My big concern here is metal from the scourer going back into the sump. The scourers are not small filaments and not brittle, but still a concern.
The other concern is this is not easy on maintenance at all. Removing that separator is a pain and requires sealant. Just thought I'd mention my thoughts on it.

In terms of the Mann+Hummel Provent200 I had in mind ...

1. They're not cheap, but they have overpressure safety valving installed (moved to the filter instead of the cap in the later models)
2. Their patent ran out so now you can get knock-off units and fit in the official filters. You just want the housing and it's a huge difference in price. The new filters might not work.
3. Filter lasts approx 40,000km. Not bad, but still a cost.
4. They have a venting regulator valve fitted before the exit. Given the other valves in the system, might want to remove this and just make it an open port. I am not sure though if this valve is critical to the oil separation process; it might be trying to keep some pressure in place to allow the oil to be separated rather than just use speed of flow.
5. They drain out the bottom allowing one to have a separate reservoir for catching oil, or to drain the oil back to the sump (not applicable without drilling/tapping something).

I really wish it was possible to find the matching NORMAQUICK V2 connectors used on these cars. It'd make it so much easier to build this especially when it comes to that vent on the valve cover. I looked around last year and didn't find perfect connectors.

What are your thoughts?
I have nothing better to do but over-analyze this. :D
2226
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by 2226 »

Also, for those who want to attempt cleaning the intake at home...

Fine/medium crushed wallnut shell blast media can be pricey, but pet bird litter is not.
https://www.kaytee.com/all-products/pet ... ut-bedding

:D
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by ciclo »

Please, if possible and since these long-term experiences are very interesting, illustrate us with images, links or installation sketches whatever the tests or installations that you both carry out with these cleaning or improvement methods...
I need to learn. :oops: Thanks to both of you!
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Le_Combattant
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by Le_Combattant »

ciclo wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 3:21 pm Please, if possible and since these long-term experiences are very interesting, illustrate us with images, links or installation sketches whatever the tests or installations that you both carry out with these cleaning or improvement methods...
I need to learn. :oops: Thanks to both of you!
With pleasure it will be done. Just give me time because due to f*****g rainy weather (it's also raining in France) and my job I don't have so much time :shock:

I will start protoype in few days/weeks
2226
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by 2226 »

Many plans, no funds. That's how things are working out. This is on my every-growing to-do list.

Regarding the catch can pictured above: where can one get those hose connectors on the 2 pipes?
Probably easy in Brazil with VW manufacturing down there. Surely they aren't salvaging those.

I also looked up the price for that kit and it way more expensive than a Provent200.
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by Le_Combattant »

2226 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:58 pm Many plans, no funds. That's how things are working out. This is on my every-growing to-do list.

Regarding the catch can pictured above: where can one get those hose connectors on the 2 pipes?
Probably easy in Brazil with VW manufacturing down there. Surely they aren't salvaging those.

I also looked up the price for that kit and it way more expensive than a Provent200.
I will reply to your post but a little bit later (lack of time).

To get this connector, you have to remove or buy an other one from your local VW dealer. Remove the isolation foam, cut the plastic tube inside as the required lenght and it should be okey.
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by 2226 »

Le_Combattant wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:15 pm To get this connector, you have to remove or buy an other one from your local VW dealer. Remove the isolation foam, cut the plastic tube inside as the required lenght and it should be okey.
Ah, I suspected that. I hate proprietary connectors like this especially given that they're mostly Normaquick.
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by Le_Combattant »

2226 wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 9:46 pm I have been going over this exact thing for a long time now and revisited the whole PCV setup over the past few days.
Just so strange that this post shows up a day later. :)

During my oil change in December, also suspecting heavy carbon build up (have another post about thousands of recorded misfires), I ran a can of CRC GDI and turbo cleaner through the engine. This is about 20% PEA (polyetheramine), 30% diesel fuel #2, and other propellants. On initial run, nothing seemed to change. However, over the next few days things change dramatically. My misfire count has dropped to near nothing, and the smoothness and power from the engine has returned. Actually, it was the most powerful the little 1.2 has ever felt since I bought it. From now on every service will include a can of CRC GDI cleaner ... because clearly diesel is better for petrol cars. :D

Back to the catch can. I like the Mann+Hummel Provent 2 setup. I'd like to get one sometime; just broke as sin and literally close to total failure does not help.
Here are my thoughts on this so far.

Leave the valve cover breather where it is. This is your fresh air intake. I don't suspect this vents too much crankcase gases. You can confirm this by looking inside the air filter housing. There's much less gunk in there than in the charge pipe leading to the throttle from the turbo. It is not zero though, but I think this depends on how much excess pressure is in the crankcase.

The crank vent at the side of the valve cover is not only for crankcase gases. It is fuel vapour as well. Follow the line down to the throttle body and you will see a t-piece directing the fuel vapour coming from the solenoid valve. I would probably split this from the PCV system and give it its own one-way port into the turbo intake. Or effectively join it to that turbo pipe after the valve cover outlet. There is another turbo inlet pipe available that makes this simple, but that's another $100 expense.

Doing that will free up the existing turbo intake for just oil vapour.

I suspect there is not much boost pressure in effect when at highway steady cruising speeds (reasonable speeds, that is). The intake port will therefore be drawing in all the gases.
I think if you're a city driver you will constantly be in pressure mode (stop/start, many gear shifts and accelleration), making the turbo intake the prime target. The 2 valves will constantly be switching but these cars need boost.
Picking one is tuning for one.
Perhaps it is best to target both.

And by that I mean the following.
Change the catch can inlet/outlet to open T-piece connections.
On the catch can inlet, feed in the oil separator vent hose and the side valve cover vent hose.
On the catch can outlet, run hoses to the turbo intake and the intake manifold valve.
This means there is no messing with the standard one-way valves. The gas still drawn to the highest vacuum signal possible.

A question I am left with now is system response due to newly introduced hose lengths. At the same time, many catch cans have been successful using these longer hoses with no adverse operating effects. It's just that you want the system responding to vacuum properly at each port in order to avoid that top fresh air valve doing the venting.

Another thing worth looking at is improving the oil extraction efficiency of the oil separator.
This could possible be done using the stainless steel pot scourer trick many have used on other setups.
Using a stainless steel pot scourer will increase the size of the surface on which oil can accumulate.
There are several chambers in the separator. I feel like the best chamber for this is the first one after the first swirl pot. Although filling the 2nd swirl pot might make a difference too.
This must be packed in loosely to avoid increase back pressure and avoid any possible clogging.

It's an old trick used to get better filtering from a catch can.
My big concern here is metal from the scourer going back into the sump. The scourers are not small filaments and not brittle, but still a concern.
The other concern is this is not easy on maintenance at all. Removing that separator is a pain and requires sealant. Just thought I'd mention my thoughts on it.

In terms of the Mann+Hummel Provent200 I had in mind ...

1. They're not cheap, but they have overpressure safety valving installed (moved to the filter instead of the cap in the later models)
2. Their patent ran out so now you can get knock-off units and fit in the official filters. You just want the housing and it's a huge difference in price. The new filters might not work.
3. Filter lasts approx 40,000km. Not bad, but still a cost.
4. They have a venting regulator valve fitted before the exit. Given the other valves in the system, might want to remove this and just make it an open port. I am not sure though if this valve is critical to the oil separation process; it might be trying to keep some pressure in place to allow the oil to be separated rather than just use speed of flow.
5. They drain out the bottom allowing one to have a separate reservoir for catching oil, or to drain the oil back to the sump (not applicable without drilling/tapping something).

I really wish it was possible to find the matching NORMAQUICK V2 connectors used on these cars. It'd make it so much easier to build this especially when it comes to that vent on the valve cover. I looked around last year and didn't find perfect connectors.

What are your thoughts?
I have nothing better to do but over-analyze this. :D
I also considered the Mann+Hummel Provent 200 Oil Catch Can as a good option but, the fact there is no tank to catch oil is a major design flaw in my opinion.
It mean you have to design/buy an other tank, found some place in your engine bay to put it.

So for me it's a big no.


"The crank vent at the side of the valve cover is not only for crankcase gases. It is fuel vapour as well. Follow the line down to the throttle body and you will see a t-piece directing the fuel vapour coming from the solenoid valve. I would probably split this from the PCV system and give it its own one-way port into the turbo intake. Or effectively join it to that turbo pipe after the valve cover outlet. There is another turbo inlet pipe available that makes this simple, but that's another $100 expense.

Doing that will free up the existing turbo intake for just oil vapour.

I suspect there is not much boost pressure in effect when at highway steady cruising speeds (reasonable speeds, that is). The intake port will therefore be drawing in all the gases.
I think if you're a city driver you will constantly be in pressure mode (stop/start, many gear shifts and accelleration), making the turbo intake the prime target. The 2 valves will constantly be switching but these cars need boost.
Picking one is tuning for one.
Perhaps it is best to target both.

And by that I mean the following.
Change the catch can inlet/outlet to open T-piece connections.
On the catch can inlet, feed in the oil separator vent hose and the side valve cover vent hose.
On the catch can outlet, run hoses to the turbo intake and the intake manifold valve.
This means there is no messing with the standard one-way valves. The gas still drawn to the highest vacuum signal possible."


Yup the vent at the side is for oil and fuel vapour coming out of the fuel tank, agree with that.

I don't know about boost pressure at high speed, I have to monitor this value next time to see how much.
Your idea is good (with the "T" piece connections) but there is a design flaw.

On the intake manifold the non return valve open when engine is stopped or running on idle. It means, oil will go back to the engine.
With a T piece connection, oil will be trapped inside the hose and couldn't no longer go back in the engine.

That's why I'm focusing on turbo side only.

By doing that I catch all major oil vapours and by leaving the factory setup at the intake manifold I could let oil go back to the engine.c
2226
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by 2226 »

Le_Combattant wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:17 am I also considered the Mann+Hummel Provent 200 Oil Catch Can as a good option but, the fact there is no tank to catch oil is a major design flaw in my opinion.
It mean you have to design/buy an other tank, found some place in your engine bay to put it.

So for me it's a big no.
Understood. A drain hose has enough capacity to hold quite a bit of oil though. The diesel guys in Australia do a similar thing.
As for space, there's a huge open area just next to the ABS pump above the gearbox. A bracket connected to the battery tray mount and bolt of the ABS mount will allow mounting it in there. Well, that's the spot I had in mind; the actual size of the Provent200 will be the ultimate decider on fitment.

Provent was really design with drain back to sump in mind. It's not ideal for sure.
Le_Combattant wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:17 am Yup the vent at the side is for oil and fuel vapour coming out of the fuel tank, agree with that.

I don't know about boost pressure at high speed, I have to monitor this value next time to see how much.
Not sure how often that valve vents, but I don't want anything condensing fuel vapours.

It doesn't take much horsepower to keep a car this size rolling at steady 100-120km/h speed.
If this thing needs boost pressure to produce 10-20HP...
Le_Combattant wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:17 am Your idea is good (with the "T" piece connections) but there is a design flaw.

On the intake manifold the non return valve open when engine is stopped or running on idle. It means, oil will go back to the engine.
With a T piece connection, oil will be trapped inside the hose and couldn't no longer go back in the engine.
Not entirely following this one.
Are you saying the oil condensing in that very short tube is what is running back to the engine?
That's a very short run and under strong vacuum (limited by the pipe diameter in that document). The oil separator has pulled out most of the bigger drops of oil (mostly).
There should be no flowing oil in that pipe. It's messy vapour.

The hose from oil separator to catch can will run upwards. If oil condenses in it it will roll back. If it's flooded with oil it will sucked up by the catch can vacuum.
The hose out of the oil sepator to the valves will be cleaner vapour, we're hoping.

If I have to think of a flaw it is how the vacuum signals will react.
The catch can T-piece is joining the vacuum sources.
Now the intake valve when closed under boost will now also be experiencing a vacuum pull from the turbo side; possibly increasing stress on it.
Then again, the turbo intake is pulling on it anyway, just through the valve cover and then crankcase space. It's just probably way less vacuum.

It's a tricky thing; I'm just trying to cover both vents to reduce as much vapours as possible.
Le_Combattant wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:17 am That's why I'm focusing on turbo side only.

By doing that I catch all major oil vapours and by leaving the factory setup at the intake manifold I could let oil go back to the engine.c
Turbo side is the simplest approach, for sure.
I think the effectiveness will be good. If you think about it, blowby gases are maximised under boost anyway.

This would be the simplest starting point to see effectiveness. It will definitely be greatly reduced. If not, then I maintain pulling from the oil separator should be looked at as well.
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by Le_Combattant »

"Not entirely following this one.
Are you saying the oil condensing in that very short tube is what is running back to the engine?
That's a very short run and under strong vacuum (limited by the pipe diameter in that document). The oil separator has pulled out most of the bigger drops of oil (mostly).
There should be no flowing oil in that pipe. It's messy vapour.

The hose from oil separator to catch can will run upwards. If oil condenses in it it will roll back. If it's flooded with oil it will sucked up by the catch can vacuum.
The hose out of the oil sepator to the valves will be cleaner vapour, we're hoping.

If I have to think of a flaw it is how the vacuum signals will react.
The catch can T-piece is joining the vacuum sources.
Now the intake valve when closed under boost will now also be experiencing a vacuum pull from the turbo side; possibly increasing stress on it.
Then again, the turbo intake is pulling on it anyway, just through the valve cover and then crankcase space. It's just probably way less vacuum.

It's a tricky thing; I'm just trying to cover both vents to reduce as much vapours as possible"

I mean, when engine is stopped or running on idle (vacuum created on intake manifold) the valve at the bottom is open.
So when engine is running, vapour are directly going into manifold.

When engine is stopped, this valve stay open and let condensed oil going back to engine. If you remove you boost pipe and your throttle body, you will see some oil in the bottom of the intake manifold. This one is comming for sure from turbo side.
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by 2226 »

Le_Combattant wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:34 pm I mean, when engine is stopped or running on idle (vacuum created on intake manifold) the valve at the bottom is open.
So when engine is running, vapour are directly going into manifold.

When engine is stopped, this valve stay open and let condensed oil going back to engine. If you remove you boost pipe and your throttle body, you will see some oil in the bottom of the intake manifold. This one is comming for sure from turbo side.
Ok, stupid me. I see what you mean and where I was mistaken.
That valve is normally-open for draining.

Bit of a pity as it would be great to filter those gases too.
So yeah, I agree, most of the oil can be reduced on turbo-side alone. I mean, the hope is that that intake valve doesn't need to drain anything anyway. :D
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by Le_Combattant »

2226 wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 6:19 pm
Le_Combattant wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:34 pm I mean, when engine is stopped or running on idle (vacuum created on intake manifold) the valve at the bottom is open.
So when engine is running, vapour are directly going into manifold.

When engine is stopped, this valve stay open and let condensed oil going back to engine. If you remove you boost pipe and your throttle body, you will see some oil in the bottom of the intake manifold. This one is comming for sure from turbo side.
Ok, stupid me. I see what you mean and where I was mistaken.
That valve is normally-open for draining.

Bit of a pity as it would be great to filter those gases too.
So yeah, I agree, most of the oil can be reduced on turbo-side alone. I mean, the hope is that that intake valve doesn't need to drain anything anyway. :D
No problemo, my english is not perfect :shock:

So now I need to monitor the boost pressure needed to open the valve on turbo side. I have a vacuum pump (normally for coolant system) but could be adapted on the hose between the head of the engine, and the turbo.
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by 2226 »

Le_Combattant wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 6:22 pm No problemo, my english is not perfect :shock:
Well if I eyesight didn't suck so bad right now then maybe I would've read that detail in the lower right of the document above.
Le_Combattant wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 6:22 pm So now I need to monitor the boost pressure needed to open the valve on turbo side. I have a vacuum pump (normally for coolant system) but could be adapted on the hose between the head of the engine, and the turbo.
Would be interesting to know.

Does this not just operate on vacuum only?
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Re: EA211 Oil Catch can

Post by 2226 »

Actually, if you think about it, it will operate on differential pressure.
It's the vacuum at the oil separator vs the vacuum at the turbo inlet. They're connected down at the oil separator.
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