UK-POLOS.NET - THE VW Polo Forum

What are you driving now then?

Well if you must know a 1975 Hillman Imp.

hilman imp, nice choice!

firstly welcome to the forum, u can still pick up mk3's pritty dam cheap, infact i bought my 1993 polo coupe for £100! needed a bit of exterior work, but apart from that, spot on!

also if i may, i would go for the 1.3 model (non gt) as it has the 5 speed box, if ya doing n e motorway driving, my car will sit at 80mph no problem (except up hill) but it drinks fuel like made due to the 4 speed box!
there are the rare occasions when u do find a 1.0ltr with a 5speed box! quite rare, mostly found in the saloon model!
hope thats of some help!

yea my 1ltr saloon has a 5spd gearbox, optional extra i belive.

that fifth gear does come in handy on the motorway

metz

The 5-speed gearbox was an optional extra on the normal 1.3 spi models too. Most seem to have it, but I've seen a couple without.

OK so I'll try and find a 5 speeder, I must admit I do miss having 5 gears.

Mmm, Imp... seems a grand machine by the classic car mag i was browsing earlier alongside Alfasuds and the like. Super lightweight, goes damn well for an old skool 900cc job...

As a 4-speed driver I'd definately reccomend the 5-speed shift, i've more than once wished for it (and come within a gnat's testis of getting one put in, but for a theiving bunch of con artists who still haven't refunded the bloody fee).
But, I say, it would pay to find out exactly which 5-speed it is! The "CL" type is more recommended (the most accurate way of describing it, "regular 4 speed, plus cruising overdrive"). The closer ratio types are more suited if (and only if??) you fancy doing a bit of racing or setting a super time down the twisties as on a long haul you wont be able to go as fast as even the 4-speed in either 4th or 5th, and it'll be a noiser, thirstier experience in both of those compared to the CL type.

*My reasoning -
In the 4-speed, 4th is pretty much cock-on for getting the best speed out of the lower powered cars without destroying the engine or being super inefficient. At full throttle in the 1-litre (low 90s), you'll sit nicely in the lower regions of the peak power zone. Lower gearing would see maybe a half mph extra but a lot more revs (though it would hold speed better uphill)... and with low-30s mpg! In the 1.3, it'll be in the slightly higher reaches (nearer 100), where it's starting to tail off, so you won't knacker it so much there either. It's nice for cruising round town, too, can just manage 25mph without being too uncomfortable, and do 35, 45-50 very quietly and thriftily. However it's not great for sustained high speed travel, being more of a city-car setup. It sees 70mph at about 4000rpm, and you can cruise most nicely at just over 60... or 75 if you turn the radio way up. Going full pelt for more than 20 straight miles is more of a rare, aw-crap-im-laaaate thing where you turn the radio off and listen to the motor sing, for anything that might be pinging off it under stress.

The wide 5-speed keeps those same 4 gears, and bolts an overdrive set on the end (quite literally - same housing, with a reshaped cover plate and longer spindles), giving ~20% lower revs at the same road speed. You won't go quite as fast flat-out with either engine, but can still sustain decent motorway speeds (80-85, 1-litre full throttle, ~5mph more for 1.3?) on the flat and slight hills, have a lot less noise, and better economy - particularly if you cruise slightly slower at part throttle (say, 70-75 again, but not needing the volume so high).
If you can stand toiling in the middle or left lanes occasionally on steeper inclines, you can probably go many lightly-loaded extended trips without having to change down to keep moving (though speed may drop worryingly!). Even the 1.0 should torque along down to low 60s or high 50s in 5th and not labour badly... unless you're facing Shap or something.

That gear however is probably not at it's best around town, at least not til you hit the 40mph limits. Not enough revs to make power, to sustain the speed you'll be going at, without using a lot of right foot. Therefore you can still truck around comfortably as if you're in a plain 4-speed whilst urban (still getting great mileage even so), but retain a bit of peace at speed - and the option of using 4th for that extra 5 or 10mph at the expense of high revs (how's 5200rpm at 91mph grab you?), noise and petrol.
(( some of the 1-litre 5 speeds seem also to have a slightly different final drive that makes each gear a tiny touch 'lower', having about as much effect as e.g. my change from 145/80 to 155/70 tyres, about 4% - subtle, but a noticable difference. Revs and consumption are slightly higher for a given speed, in exchange for better acceleration, 4th holding speed better, and 5th is a little faster and a little easier on the engine uphill without getting too much noisier... still being 16% over 'original' 4th ))

The closer set 5-speeds however are a bit of an odd bunch, probably more suited to the more powerful engines like the GT. There's one extra close job (1-litre only) where 1st is same, 5th is identical to normal 4th, and the others juggled to fit. Good for the urban delivery warrior, mountainous valley resident, or 1-litre country lane samurai who still wants some motorway prowess. Odd, but not as kooky as the others.

The "GT" style gearboxes are a bit strange, and arguably only a good match for that higher-revving, narrow ranged, more powerful engine, and not so great for the lower powered ones (or the G40) - though you may well see something with similar ratios bolted to a 1.0! It would at least be ok for the 1.3 (5th seeming like a regular 4-speed top does to the 1.0), and motorway driving will be slightly better on the ears and fuel than the 4-speed, but not greatly so (and slower!). It'll seem buzzy for a 5sp!

It's first 4 are quite low-set and close, compensated by a much wider jump between 4th and 5th than might be expected, more than 25%. I don't know if you might already see this is a problem for the 1-litre. Top is almost 1mph per 1000 revs higher, making it hard to hit that engines power peak and get the best speed (or hold what you have), but you're almost out the other side of it at the same speed in 4th and making some very hard revs. That lower edge of it you might have seen in the regular 4-speed - to change up into it in 5th would require bouncing off the rev limiter in 4th. Having to swap between those two gears may become a bit of a tiring experience, particularly as the gap is so wide and jarring. (Even gear-hunting on rolling terrain with the wider box wouldn't be *so* bad, as you probably wouldn't bother to do it until dropping past 75mph, and the difference between the engine speeds would seem much less marked despite the power difference)
Plus its still probably not that good around town

(( actually, the G40 boxes are a development of the GT ones - same core ratios (with a mildly and mysteriously tweaked 2nd) but with a much altered final drive - making each gear about 20% taller... so basically 5th is a little higher than that in the CL, and everything's squashed upwards to match. However seeing as the engine is more than twice as powerful as the plain 1.3, it can cope with a somewhat higher 1st, and the comparitively tall 5th! ))

And so on and foo.........
(I make this argument too often i know )

Nice one Tahrey1043 pretty damn spot on there m8... On another simular note my 1.3 has a 4speed box and I've gota 5speed box either waiting to go in or to be sold. I REALLY don't want to get rid of the car today , I jus loooked at it and fell in lov with its colour again (Capri Green), the engine to say the least is odd.
Where some days it revs fine and starts on the very first turn over (or before that ) or others where it needs a bit of a rev to get it going. If you can find an early MK3 (ealry H reg one) your on to a winner, if the engine is in good nick then u've got a bit of an edge over the other 1.3s out there, but not the GT's, having multipoint injection makes it a bit easier to tune if your into that kind of thing (which is also another reason I don't want to get rid of mine), although I haven't even started on mine yet.

Some things to look out for are:

Whiny gearbox - go for a test drive and see if the gear box seems to scrape in first (mine's just started doing this intermittently).

Odd idle - this can however be solved with a bit of cleaning and new temp senders



In all there pretty damn good engines.

Whiney gearbox?
Please don't say that you mean around 25-40mph... I can judge my speed without looking off the high pitched hum it makes then, in whatever gear...
The scraping 1st might just be your clutch wearing or the bite point shifting - 1st is synchroed, but it's got such a reduction on it that it's always tougher than the other gears. Had to start in 2nd several times just before I got the clutch fixed.

Dunno whether you're being sarky or not about the "spot on" there dan, but i think i need something attached to my forehead that'll give me a shock any time i start rabbiting on

(mmm, nice colour - i'm guessing your 5sp is the GT one thats for sale? (dammit ))

Any idea what's the problem with yours then, is it a CL? The 1-litre outside always kicks straight into life after about a half second of starter when it's warm (unless it's been stalled REAL bad and flooded ).... Colder days, yeah, can be a bit of a pig, but still not so terrible. Think you need a bit of a tune up! Or is that your dirty temp senders too?!

Not the most powerful engines, but pretty bombproof, and efficient - i'll take that over it being a top fuelled dragster! (and going CLANK every other month like the ol' GT-rivalling Punto)

Tahrey1043 wrote:Dunno whether you're being sarky or not about the "spot on" there dan, but i think i need something attached to my forehead that'll give me a shock any time i start rabbiting on

Nah I wans't m8 I can't be arsed at the mo sarcasm doesn't work over the net . I were jus sayin you got it pretty well sussed there *thumbs up*

Tahery1043 wrote: (mmm, nice colour - i'm guessing your 5sp is the GT one thats for sale? (dammit ))

Yup that's the one.

I dont know how you manage to write such long posts tahrey1043. It must take you ages!

For a cheap insurance but quite quick polo I would recommend a mk2 coupe S or ranger (the squareback version). With this model you get a 55bhp 1.3 litre engine which is carb'd rather than having fuel injection. YOu would also get a rev counter, sports steering wheel and (if ur lucky) a sunroof and some sports seats,. It also has the 8P gearbox which is the same as the 5-speed gearbox you will find on the mk3 1.3 CL.

This gearbox does very well in a mk2, better than in a mk3 with the same horsepower IMO because the car weighs alot less which means you get through the gears quicker. Indeed, it is a whole second faster to 60 than a same horsepower mk3. I used to often cruise at 30mph in 5th at about 1400-1500rpm, this wasnt possible in the mk3. It would also pick up suprisigly well from this speed without the need to change down. Thats the torque of a good old fashined carbed engine for ya!

As an additional but quite useless piece of information, The GT gearbox has more or less the same first and second gear to the 8P box. But 3rd 4th and 5th are all shorter. Infact 4th gear on the 8P box is almost identical to 5th on a GT box (about 3mph difference at 70) So if anyone went from a 1.3 4 speed to a 5 speed GT box they would probably find that they have more gears but within the same range as the old box. Useful for improved acceleration, less useful for top speed. However, 1 litre owners would do very well with a GT box IMO whereas the 8P box wouldnt be much use to them; It has nice long gears but acceleration would suffer immensly.

Just to answer a couple of your questions tahrey:
The 1.0 5 speed and GT boxes differ only in final drive ratio.

There is a tiny difference in final drive ratio between equivalent 4/5speed boxes.

I never stop complaining about Gearboxes. All my cars have had 5 speed boxes and the only box Ive liked so far is the 8P one. The GT could really use a 6th. The 8P 5th would make an excellent 6th for the GT. Many a time ive tried changing up when Im alredy in 5th I was so used to my CLs gears. Ive been thinking about getting an 8P box for my 1400 GT of late, would be brilliant on the motorway ~140mph to speed (theoretically of course) where as I would run out of steam becuase of the gearing at 120ish with a GT box. Im just a litte concerned about it affecting my acceleration which is likely to suffer in 3rd. 60 cannot be reached in 2nd in either box (would need 7600 rpm in second on the 8P) :O I may see an advantage in a 0-80 time but only because I can reach this in 3rd on the 8P. Anyway, I think Ive said enough now.

Gazza.... here's my reference that i use for all that shiznit
http://www.tigerstyle.co.uk/poloforum/v ... highlight=

It's a little out of date compared to the one that's on my hard disc, but still usable and almost all the stuff in there is accurate. Definately the details for CL, GT and G40 mk3 / late mk2 gearboxes are, to the best of my knowledge, 100% accurate. Many of the ratios came straight from an EKTA browsing thing I found online (and am really peed off that i didnt bookmark, because its disappeared from google).

However i'm always open to suggestions for improvements and tweaks to it, extra knowledge, etc. I don't make any guarantee that it's right! But it does seem to match up nicely with the on-road stats of MY gearbox at least.

My thoughts on the GT and 8P boxes for the 1-litre.... my 4-speed box (AKV? it's got a 0.891 4th and a 4.067 FD anyway) seems about as much as a 1043 mk3 hatch can cope with in standard trim, in terms of getting the best speed. You just manage to kiss peak power (at 5200rpm, though going by mk2 details it probably sustains it to at least 5600) at 91mph.. about all that 45hp is good for in a car of that size and shape. A de-catted one or a coupe will probably go a bit quicker.
So that 4th gear or one that's ever so slightly lower (such as the similar boxes with a 4.26 FD, as found in the mk2) will make your car go about as fast as it can, on the flat without wind. However it's not too comfortable at that speed, or anything much past the low 60s.

The 8P box is quite literally my 4 speed with a 5th 0.738 ratio put on the end (that's the best technical explanation for it! and the ratios/FD all match), and one that isn't *so* much higher. Just enough to mean you're more in the torque band than the power band at relaxed motorway speeds, for less noise and better economy. You can't reach as high a top speed with it, acceleration is a bit muted and it may chuggy round town, but all three of those are what 4th's for
So acceleration isn't "hurt" by the 8P any more than it is by any regular 4 speed (they're all pretty much "gapped" the same, though the differentials are different). There's the extra weight of the gear, and it *could* admittedly be a bit closer to keep the engine boiling a bit hotter, but it won't really take off any slower. If you have the type which is the 8P with a 4.26 (cant remember the code - i'm lazy and havent got the sheet open) then it might go a little more zippy off the line without hurting the cruising abilities.
(( it doesnt seem to accelerate all that badly, even after a gearchange... keeping the revs higher WOULD help, but it's torquey enough that it doesnt bog down at the 3200-3800 you hit coming out of 1st, 2nd ))

The GT box is a fair bit different. I'll start by saying that it looks like pretty much all euro VW boxes begin their lives by having the spindles, reverse, and a 3.454 first gear installed... so thats the same for nearly all of them, differential permitting. Most of the american ones too, until the latest "020-J" things. (i went thru a lot of US sites til i found euro information)
The first 4 gears are fairly close, ending up with a 4th that's somewhere between 3rd and 4th on the 4-speed - so you'll zip up to speed, though there may be more changing than you like when you're cruising... you can't even make 70 in 3rd. There's then a jump to 5th (actually a bigger gap than 3rd-4th if i remember right) which is distinctly more of a jolt than 4th-5th on the 8P. It's a 0.851 ratio, tall enough to stop you quite reaching peak power in the 1-L without a descent (so you might lose 1 or 2mph - not much, but it can make a difference), but not tall enough to make high speeds comfortable.
I don't suppose it would be *so* bad I just like being able to occasionally get past the big 9-0 without needing a slope (or breaking the limiter in 4th - which tops out about 89mph..). With that in place, you'd probably beat me to 60, but i'd like to think i'd have the upper hand past 70-75. Certainly past 80-85
(to be fair the variant most likely used in a 1043 is that with a more frantic differential, which brings 5th back almost to exactly regular 4th... and makes the lower gears simply mental! which wouldn't be too bad to have, so long as you don't want to cruise.)

And then there's the 1-litre only 5 speed, where 4th and 5th are shorter and closer to 3rd and each other... basically 4-speed with an extra gear shoehorned in between 2nd and 3rd, and those two juggled to fit. Be mighty fine for overtaking with...

What about a 6-speed home conversion... it's theoretically possible
Start out with the lower-geared of the GT types (so even 1st is a bit more punchy, though you can't hit 30 any more), open it up, get a 0.738 in there somewhere next to the new 5th (hopefully it's not a 1-way synchro and you just need to unblock the linkage)... now there's the first 4 for acceleration, 5th for top speed, 6th for cruising. Sorted.
(ie like you said - the 8P fifth )

and remember - tyres can make a difference. on the slightly smaller-diameter 155/70s im now running, the speedo will tend to trip up to 94-95 on straights where before i was seeing maybe 91 or 92 on 145/80s... however that's only controlled by the gearbox output, and if you do the maths between the rolling circumference of each, i'm going about the same terminal speed, just with some extra revs. not as good for the engine or my pocket, but makes hills a little less scary

And yeah... this does take an age.


PS better torque of carbed engine, on top of a small bore intake 8 valve - you'll be getting good fuel mix even at low speeds anyway. i like how the injection engine goes... the carb version must be pretty sweet (if its not one of those crapped out carbs)

So what does a 1300 have, a carb or injection?

Injection, multipoint or Single point.

Mk2 - Carburettor (single barrel i think for most, or double for GT/G40?)

Mk3, CL & most other editions - single point injection (electronically controlled injector mounted in traditional carb position)

Mk3, GT & G40 - multi point injection (injectors mounted closer to valves, at end points of inlet manifold after it splits)