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Cadwest wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:25 am The average speed cameras on the A9 in Scotland

Cadwest wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:53 am

Andy Beats wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:43 am I admit, having to stick to 70mph does my head in.
Now that there's average speed cameras between Aberdeen and Edinburgh/Glasgow, the journey is even more hellish.
Partly the fact you're going so slow, mostly the fact the roads are more clogged because of it.
There simply aren't the gaps in traffic you used to get any more, because people are all going roughly the same speed and people are overtaking each other at a 'slightly different' version of 70mph.
Crawling past each other at 0.3mph more than the other...
It's horrible.

Has it not dropped the death rate by 50% though Andy, got to be a good thing. If you find it annoying just think of what it’s doing to all the BMW and Audi drivers, that would put a smile on my face

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:01 pm

Cadwest wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:53 am

Andy Beats wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:43 am I admit, having to stick to 70mph does my head in.
Now that there's average speed cameras between Aberdeen and Edinburgh/Glasgow, the journey is even more hellish.
Partly the fact you're going so slow, mostly the fact the roads are more clogged because of it.
There simply aren't the gaps in traffic you used to get any more, because people are all going roughly the same speed and people are overtaking each other at a 'slightly different' version of 70mph.
Crawling past each other at 0.3mph more than the other...
It's horrible.

Has it not dropped the death rate by 50% though Andy, got to be a good thing. If you find it annoying just think of what it’s doing to all the BMW and Audi drivers, that would put a smile on my face

The death rate drop almost certainly has far more to do with advances in car tech - air bags, ABS brakes, advances in tyre compounds, seat belt pretensioners, stronger safety cells (body work), crumple zones to absorb the impact rather than bouncing off each other (the old Volvo 240 was like a sherman tank) and most recently, radar sensory braking (like ACC), than any greater level of speed monitoring. Of course we'll never know, and the authorities will take each reduction as a triumph of the cash generating speed cameras than the new safety tech.


Motorway deaths only account for 5.5% of all road fatalities, over 60% are on rural roads, and 44% of deaths are to car occupants themselves.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... t-2017.pdf


There has been an unwritten assumption that has held true for years, that if you do 80 on a motorwaywith no imposed speed restrictions, you'll not get pulled over. On this basis, and all the advancements we've seen in safety tech, groups were pushing to increase the motorway speed limit to 80, and enforce that increased speed rather than have an unofficial leeway. Pity that didn't happen.

Andy Beats wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:59 am I must admit, as much as I hate the way average speed cameras have ruined my ability to go long distances in an acceptable time, I do scoff at the term 'cash generators'
If no-one speeds, they don't generate a penny, that's pretty obvious.
So if they're there, you have a simple choice.
Adhere to the limit, or pay the fine.
Don't moan about being caught.

Leif wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:05 am
You really can't call average speed cameras cash generators as they are very clearly marked, and if you do miss the first one, slow down and avoid the fine. And the ones I see are at road works, where workers are often present. Ordinary speed cameras can seem like cash generators, especially when a limit has been recently reduced and the police set up a mobile unit to catch unsuspecting drivers.

I'm not keen on the "don't speed, and there's no problem" argument. That same argument could be used to justify random stop and search i.e. if you are honest you have nothing to worry about. Laws should be reasonable and not be applied unless needed.

Cadwest wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:25 am The average speed cameras on the A9 in Scotland

Leif wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:52 am

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:01 pm

Cadwest wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:53 am

Has it not dropped the death rate by 50% though Andy, got to be a good thing. If you find it annoying just think of what it’s doing to all the BMW and Audi drivers, that would put a smile on my face

The death rate drop almost certainly has far more to do with advances in car tech - air bags, ABS brakes, advances in tyre compounds, seat belt pretensioners, stronger safety cells (body work), crumple zones to absorb the impact rather than bouncing off each other (the old Volvo 240 was like a sherman tank) and most recently, radar sensory braking (like ACC), than any greater level of speed monitoring. Of course we'll never know, and the authorities will take each reduction as a triumph of the cash generating speed cameras than the new safety tech.


Motorway deaths only account for 5.5% of all road fatalities, over 60% are on rural roads, and 44% of deaths are to car occupants themselves.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... t-2017.pdf


There has been an unwritten assumption that has held true for years, that if you do 80 on a motorwaywith no imposed speed restrictions, you'll not get pulled over. On this basis, and all the advancements we've seen in safety tech, groups were pushing to increase the motorway speed limit to 80, and enforce that increased speed rather than have an unofficial leeway. Pity that didn't happen.

In the case referred to the drop is almost certainly due largely to the speed cameras as it occurred over a few years. Without doubt the factors you mention are important on a national level over longer timescales. It’s one reason I like to buy a new car.

For years the government ignored regression to the mean which when included halved the calculated effectiveness of speed cameras. The way speed limits are enforced varies hugely. Locally the police are sensible, they use mobile units in residential areas and B roads. None of this business with motorways which are relatively safe anyway. I’ve seen four serious accidents on my commute over the last two months, none in the preceding 8 months. I’m guessing ice and the dark are two key factors. That and over bright headlights. Grrrr.

monkeyhanger wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 am The sneaky camera vans didn't start getting widely used until somewhere around 2012, and motorway cameras and average speed cameras a little after that, with no significant drop coming in with their implementation.

A few months ago I saw a camera van parked up on the kerb of an overpass, on the A1(M) northbound, just before the exit up to the A19. It was clocking everyone going past - on a motorway, with no works or anything else going on.

monkeyhanger wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 am

Leif wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:52 am

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:01 pm

The death rate drop almost certainly has far more to do with advances in car tech - air bags, ABS brakes, advances in tyre compounds, seat belt pretensioners, stronger safety cells (body work), crumple zones to absorb the impact rather than bouncing off each other (the old Volvo 240 was like a sherman tank) and most recently, radar sensory braking (like ACC), than any greater level of speed monitoring. Of course we'll never know, and the authorities will take each reduction as a triumph of the cash generating speed cameras than the new safety tech.


Motorway deaths only account for 5.5% of all road fatalities, over 60% are on rural roads, and 44% of deaths are to car occupants themselves.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... t-2017.pdf


There has been an unwritten assumption that has held true for years, that if you do 80 on a motorwaywith no imposed speed restrictions, you'll not get pulled over. On this basis, and all the advancements we've seen in safety tech, groups were pushing to increase the motorway speed limit to 80, and enforce that increased speed rather than have an unofficial leeway. Pity that didn't happen.

In the case referred to the drop is almost certainly due largely to the speed cameras as it occurred over a few years. Without doubt the factors you mention are important on a national level over longer timescales. It’s one reason I like to buy a new car.

For years the government ignored regression to the mean which when included halved the calculated effectiveness of speed cameras. The way speed limits are enforced varies hugely. Locally the police are sensible, they use mobile units in residential areas and B roads. None of this business with motorways which are relatively safe anyway. I’ve seen four serious accidents on my commute over the last two months, none in the preceding 8 months. I’m guessing ice and the dark are two key factors. That and over bright headlights. Grrrr.

If you look at the attachment I provided, you'll see that fatalities on the road had its most significant drop between 2007 and 2011 then has remained almost static between then and the end of 2017. These are the Governments own findings.

I wouldn't attribute the significant drop between 2007 and 2011 to cameras, a few permanent Gatsos is all we had at that time, not the current variety of cameras. The sneaky camera vans didn't start getting widely used until somewhere around 2012, and motorway cameras and average speed cameras a little after that, with no significant drop coming in with their implementation.

A few months ago I saw a camera van parked up on the kerb of an overpass, on the A1(M) northbound, just before the exit up to the A19. It was clocking everyone going past - on a motorway, with no works or anything else going on.

The proliferation of cameras over the last 4 years seems to be more for profit than safety. No cameras to enforce 20mph outside schools, but plenty of 70 roads reduced to 50 when they do roadworks and then remain at 50 once the work is complete. Most of that work being in the removal of roundabouts for 4 way light junctions, snarling up traffic and ruining the flow. The main way back into my small town takes about 3 times longer from the main dual carriageway than it did. Progress.

Andy Beats wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:59 am

monkeyhanger wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:31 am The sneaky camera vans didn't start getting widely used until somewhere around 2012, and motorway cameras and average speed cameras a little after that, with no significant drop coming in with their implementation.

A few months ago I saw a camera van parked up on the kerb of an overpass, on the A1(M) northbound, just before the exit up to the A19. It was clocking everyone going past - on a motorway, with no works or anything else going on.

Again, they're not 'sneaky'....people just get complacent and unobservant.
In the case you've provided, he may not have actually been going for speeders at all.
May have been ANPR for roadtax, in which case they don't have to abide by the same visibility rules as catching speeders.

Leif wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:06 pm

Can I suggest you read what I posted as I was referring to "The average speed cameras on the A9 in Scotland". And I quite clearly said "In the case referred to the drop is almost certainly due largely to the speed cameras as it occurred over a few years." You are confusing the A9 and overall speed camera use and statistics.