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Re: Top gear drag race
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:59 pm
by Rocky5
Please do let us know the difference between two cars .
Re: Top gear drag race
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:12 pm
by monkeyhanger
Slider09 wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:52 pm
monkeyhanger wrote:Slider09 wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:26 pm
Polo GTI vs Golf R = bye bye mr/s Polo driver.
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From a standing start, certainly - it'll be left for dead. In gear, the R will be away, but it's not as big a gap as you'd think. Below 4500rpm, the R doesn't feel appreciably quicker than a Golf GTI, above that 4500rpm, the R gets a second wind as the Golf GTI is starting to tail off. In the real world, not doing traffic light drag races, 30-70mph acceleration is what counts to most, and in that situation, that Golf R is going to be 2 or 3 car lengths ahead of the Polo.
I've a slightly crude test that I do for my cars. I have a sliproad onto a dual carriageway, and I maintain 25mph until I pass a certain sign and then floor it until I pass another sign, and see what speed i'm doing when I pass the sign, here are some figures from my recent car history (all done very early in the morning with nothing else on the road, in the dry, with warm oil):-
2009 Scirocco 140TDI Manual stock = 70mph
2011 Scirocco 170TDI Manual stock = 79mph
2013 MK7 Golf GTD Manual stock 184TDI = 81mph
2013 MK7 Golf GTD Manual 240TDI (DTUK tuning box) = 88mph
2015 MK7 Golf R Manual stock 300PS = 96mph
2018 MK6 Polo GTI+ AW 200PS DSG = 87mph
I must also add that my wife's 2019 GTI+ with GPF feels noticeably slower when pressing on than my 2018 GTI+ with no GPF, although I haven't tried my test in her car - would be good to know what the deficit is against mine.
I have a mk7 R, wife has a 7.5 GTI (both DSG). R is noticeably quicker than the GTI - especially lower in the rev range.
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Is yours a facelift R? (i'm presuming not as you said MK7, not 7.5). The 0-62 times dropped quite a bit in the R when the 7 speed DSG got introduced. What GTI does the wife have? 220ps? 230ps? 245ps? CS (265ps)?
I really felt with mine that the R didn't come alive until 4500rpm, it didn't feel like it was pulling that hard below ithat point. Then again, because it was so composed (so much better on Prets than my mate's on Cadiz -suspension differences between 18" and 19" were very noticeable, firmer yet much better controlled on 19"), the R never felt as fast as it actually was.
It'll be difficult to get my wife's GTI+ without her in it to do my test, but the difference between the 2 (with and without GPF) is noticeable.
Re: Top gear drag race
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:03 am
by Slider09
Yeah it’s a mk7 R (non face lift), GTI is the non PP variant (230 ps).
Official 0-60 on the R is 4.9 (DSG), although that’s 4.6 generally.
Obviously the R is far better from stationary. I struggle driving the GTI as the grip is terrible, even with light throttle. Maybe with better tyres it may be different. Low down the R seems to pull far stronger than the GTI.
The GTI does feel lighter - wife actually said this the first time she drove her car. Also has a much firmer ride, maybe that’s down to running 19’s, opposed to the 18’s on the R (both non DCC).
If I had to pick one car, it would be the R all day.
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Re: Top gear drag race
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:01 am
by monkeyhanger
Slider09 wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:03 am
Yeah it’s a mk7 R (non face lift), GTI is the non PP variant (230 ps).
Official 0-60 on the R is 4.9 (DSG), although that’s 4.6 generally.
Obviously the R is far better from stationary. I struggle driving the GTI as the grip is terrible, even with light throttle. Maybe with better tyres it may be different. Low down the R seems to pull far stronger than the GTI.
The GTI does feel lighter - wife actually said this the first time she drove her car. Also has a much firmer ride, maybe that’s down to running 19’s, opposed to the 18’s on the R (both non DCC).
If I had to pick one car, it would be the R all day.
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What tyres are on the Golf GTI? If it's Bridgestone Potenzas, then it is going to be skittish because the traction and turn in grip are abysmal on them, coupled with the much lighter back end (the 4-motion box under the boot in the R adds around 80Kg directly in that area).
My Golf GTD coming on Potenzas and having poor traction (lots of tramping) was a big factor in deciding to get an R. Unfortunately the R came on Potenza RE050 tyres, and turn in grip was poor, so I binned the tyres for Michelin PSS and the car was transformed.
I'm usually an options tightarse but I felt so strongly that the Cadiz were hideous, I had to go for the Prets. Not such an expensive option as it turns out - you seem to get your money back at trade-in or private sale with a Pret specced R consistently selling for a grand more than one on Cadiz.
Our incoming 2018 GTI+ was meant to be for the wife, but I liked it that much, I let her have the R until we decided to let it go for another GTI+.
I can't really say I miss the R - it was quick and yet dull at the same time - the price you pay for it's great composure, I suppose. It would've felt even duller for me with DSG - I do miss a manual box, dropping 6th to 3rd for an overtake rather than waiting for the DSG to trundle down through multiple gears to get there, and always being in the gear I chose.
I think a big factor in not regretting the change is that the dash on the Polo GTI+ looks light years ahead of the pre-facelift R. I had a rough gearbox on my R, I kept pestering for a fix but was told it was characteristic- the were a lot of manual GTIs and Rs around 2015/2016 with the same issue- and my clutch slipped a few times - plenty there to marr the driving experience daily.
Re: Top gear drag race
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:33 am
by Slider09
Sounds like you didn’t enjoy the R.
ETTO - given the choice between Polo GTI and Golf GTI, I’d get the Golf every time. Given the choice between the Golf GTI and the R, I’d get the R every time.
I get the manual gearbox and understand those that like it. DSG suits the R so much, if your DSG waits several seconds to change down you either don’t know how to use it, or it’s knackered.
As for the dash, I actually prefer the analogue dash on my R over the mrs’ GTI.
I do like the look of the Polo GTI, however as long as there are performance Golf’s in the VW range, the Polo will always be a no for me (unless financials were a factor).
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Re: Top gear drag race
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:59 am
by monkeyhanger
I kept the R longer than any other car I've ever had- 46 months. For the performance it had, I just didn't find it that exciting (again, high level of composure I think).
The MK7 Golf doesn't feel as solid as previous generations - the first Golf where cost cutting is unashamedly in your face and it feels a bit cheap, despite the ridiculous RRP the car now attracts.
When basic RRP for a GTI is pushing £34k now, I just don't feel the Golf is good value for money.its not all about the RRP, but how much it costs to run - residuals on the Golf GTI aren't especially good to justify that RRP either.
I look at the Golf GTI performance next to the Polo GTI+ and struggle to see how you can justify the £10k Gap.
The Polo is almost as big (just 10mm less room between the rear bench front and the back of my front seat in the Golf's favour).
Equipment-wise you have to spend £350 to get 18" wheels on the Polo, it doesn't have dual zone climate (a £430 option), it doesn't have Nav (a £650 option), it doesn't have an electronic handbrake (hard to put a price on that as it isn't optional - can't be more than £200), rear camera (a £250 option), and the "performance" bigger brakes and LSD were a £900 option on the standard Golf GTI. How much extra can multilink rear suspension cost? No more than £1000, surely? The Polo has a slightly more advanced variant of the same EA888 engine, with port and direct injection (Golf recently lost port injection), albeit down on power that a remap would fix (The Polo has the same turbo as the standard GTI Performance). In the Polo's favour, it has 2 stage adjustable suspension (formerly a £230 option).
The 7 speed DSG on the Golf didn't cost any more to spec on the GTI PP than the 6 speed retained on the non-PP GTI post facelift, so I haven't enhanced any cost for that.
Tot all that up and the Golf deserves to be £3550 dearer. Adjust for the slightly better door cards on the Golf, slightly better rear clusters, a little more metal in the body work as it's marginally bigger (takes it up to about £4k) and it's difficult to see how the Golf costs £5k more, let alone £10k more.
In the Golf GTI, the last of the MK5s 10 years ago had an RRP of £21k. The cheapest MK7 GTI is £33k RRP. That is a huge hike in price in a time of record low inflation. Yes the MK7 is better equipped and more powerful, but tech is cheaper.
The Polo GTI Looks massively better value to me - 90% of a Golf GTI for 70% of the cost, and that's why we have 2 of them rather than 2 Golfs.
Both bought outright at broker discount, I'm anticipating depreciational cost to be around £200 a month per car if I sell them privately in 3 years time for £13k. The Golf GTI will cost more like £300 a month each in depreciation. For ne it's not worth an extra £100 a month for the Golf.
Re: Top gear drag race
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:06 pm
by green justin
monkeyhanger wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:59 am
I kept the R longer than any other car I've ever had- 46 months. For the performance it had, I just didn't find it that exciting (again, high level of composure I think).
The MK7 Golf doesn't feel as solid as previous generations - the first Golf where cost cutting is unashamedly in your face and it feels a bit cheap, despite the ridiculous RRP the car now attracts.
When basic RRP for a GTI is pushing £34k now, I just don't feel the Golf is good value for money.its not all about the RRP, but how much it costs to run - residuals on the Golf GTI aren't especially good to justify that RRP either.
I look at the Golf GTI performance next to the Polo GTI+ and struggle to see how you can justify the £10k Gap.
The Polo is almost as big (just 10mm less room between the rear bench front and the back of my front seat in the Golf's favour).
Equipment-wise you have to spend £350 to get 18" wheels on the Polo, it doesn't have dual zone climate (a £430 option), it doesn't have Nav (a £650 option), it doesn't have an electronic handbrake (hard to put a price on that as it isn't optional - can't be more than £200), rear camera (a £250 option), and the "performance" bigger brakes and LSD were a £900 option on the standard Golf GTI. How much extra can multilink rear suspension cost? No more than £1000, surely? The Polo has a slightly more advanced variant of the same EA888 engine, with port and direct injection (Golf recently lost port injection), albeit down on power that a remap would fix (The Polo has the same turbo as the standard GTI Performance). In the Polo's favour, it has 2 stage adjustable suspension (formerly a £230 option).
The 7 speed DSG on the Golf didn't cost any more to spec on the GTI PP than the 6 speed retained on the non-PP GTI post facelift, so I haven't enhanced any cost for that.
Tot all that up and the Golf deserves to be £3550 dearer. Adjust for the slightly better door cards on the Golf, slightly better rear clusters, a little more metal in the body work as it's marginally bigger (takes it up to about £4k) and it's difficult to see how the Golf costs £5k more, let alone £10k more.
In the Golf GTI, the last of the MK5s 10 years ago had an RRP of £21k. The cheapest MK7 GTI is £33k RRP. That is a huge hike in price in a time of record low inflation. Yes the MK7 is better equipped and more powerful, but tech is cheaper.
The Polo GTI Looks massively better value to me - 90% of a Golf GTI for 70% of the cost, and that's why we have 2 of them rather than 2 Golfs.
Both bought outright at broker discount, I'm anticipating depreciational cost to be around £200 a month per car if I sell them privately in 3 years time for £13k. The Golf GTI will cost more like £300 a month each in depreciation. For ne it's not worth an extra £100 a month for the Golf.
Golf GTI 7.5 has become quite expensive. Even the 1 or 2 year old Golf GTI with 10/20 thousand miles cost the same as a new Polo GTI. This is why I got the Polo. but even the Polo GTI prices are increasing year on year.
I could get a 2019 Focus ST1 new or demo for the price of Polo GTI.
But I can’t do the manual gearbox.