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Andy Beats wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:57 am

Leif wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:03 pm It is deeply offensive to the vast majority who voted Leave.

If someone mentioned Scotland, and my first post on the issue was to say that a lot of Scottish people are drunkards, and benefit scroungers, Scottish people would be right to be offended. If someone mentioned black people, and my first comment was to say that a lot of black people are dirty, and crooks, there would be justifiable outrage.

So as to your earlier comment, go screw yourself.

Sadly some remainers can not discuss Brexit without using the R word and other slurs, but it’s a convenient way to avoid the real issues.

Quite frankly, I don't care.
Even if leave voters aren't racist, or claim not to be, they have enabled and strengthened racism in this country to levels I've not seen before.
They should be ashamed.
PS Australia isn't a great country to use an example, one of the most racist countries out there.

think of any other major country in the world out side of Europe and you will find the same difficulty in simply upping sticks and moving there. at the very least you need a visa and in almost every case you need qualifying points or skills to move there.

monkeyhanger wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:21 pm Does that concern make people racist? Not in my book.

Yes, actually, it does.
Because their arguments for being concerned are proven to be rubbish, time and time again.
Surveys that show these people aren't a drain on our system, they actually contribute more than they take.
Surveys that show that if it wasn't for the wars we had a hand in starting and perpetuating, they wouldn't have come here in the first place and will return ASAP.
Think about it, why the hell would you give up Syria for Wolverhampton if it wasn't for war?
So when these facts are presented and people still have concerns, it can only come down to racism.
The very definition of racism is distrust/dislike of others for no apparent reason other than their colour/origin.

The west did not start the war in Syria, it was a civil war that started as a direct result of the much vaunted Arab Spring which has turned out to be a disaster for the Middle East. The west only intervened once chemical weapons were used and rise of Isis that carried out wholesale massacre and attacks on the west. The illegal wars you speak of Andy were started by the big pro remain guy Tony Blair who should be prosecuted for war crimes and I hate to say that David Cameron was right and more help should of been given to the displaced people within safe countries in the region.

Polotics.

Cadwest wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:24 am The west did not start the war in Syria, it was a civil war that started as a direct result of the much vaunted Arab Spring which has turned out to be a disaster for the Middle East. The west only intervened once chemical weapons were used and rise of Isis that carried out wholesale massacre and attacks on the west. The illegal wars you speak of Andy were started by the big pro remain guy Tony Blair who should be prosecuted for war crimes and I hate to say that David Cameron was right and more help should of been given to the displaced people within safe countries in the region.

Bang on there - Blair is a war criminal IMO.

Cadwest wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:16 am

Andy Beats wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:57 am

Leif wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:03 pm It is deeply offensive to the vast majority who voted Leave.

If someone mentioned Scotland, and my first post on the issue was to say that a lot of Scottish people are drunkards, and benefit scroungers, Scottish people would be right to be offended. If someone mentioned black people, and my first comment was to say that a lot of black people are dirty, and crooks, there would be justifiable outrage.

So as to your earlier comment, go screw yourself.

Sadly some remainers can not discuss Brexit without using the R word and other slurs, but it’s a convenient way to avoid the real issues.

Quite frankly, I don't care.
Even if leave voters aren't racist, or claim not to be, they have enabled and strengthened racism in this country to levels I've not seen before.
They should be ashamed.
PS Australia isn't a great country to use an example, one of the most racist countries out there.

After the referendum the government carried out a survey and found that out of all the people that voted for leave only 50% did so due to concerns on immigration. I believe that most of the people who voted leave due to immigration are not racist but ill informed and I say this because for years in the lead up to the referendum main stream press in England kept running stories about how bad immigration was for the country, they never printed any positive stories at all. I will give you an example from last week with the Daily Mail ( now pro remain ) over the girl who has disappeared and the guy who was arrested, the headline they kept running used the words Polish butcher instead of man arrested which is less inflammatory. The main reason for the negative opinions on immigration can be layed at the feet of our mainstream press which for years wrote ill informed stories on the matter.

It's nice to see that someone can think Brexit is wrong, but they can express their objections in a moderate manner.

The Daily Mail is, sadly, known for alarmist and unbalanced stories. The main reason I voted Leave was not immigration but self determination. And the same goes for many friends. However, immigration is too high in the view of many: we have seen the largest ingress into this country in recorded history by a long margin. It is not the Daily Mail and other rags that raise concerns, but the sheer numbers of immigrants. Most are nice people. Many of my friends are Eastern Europeans, and it makes me sad to see how hard a Lithuanian-Russsian friend works given what I assume is very modest pay. I play ice hockey with many Eastern Europeans and have had the honour of playing with people who played at a professional level in Slovakia and elsewhere. I use the term 'play' loosely in relation to my skill level I might add. Incidentally the outflow of Eastern Europeans is a problem for their own countries. Hungary has a huge skills shortage. Poland has a shortage of skilled labour too despite EU investment. To say that immigration is too high is not racist, and unfortunately some rather extreme people consider that any restrictions are an indication of racism. And yet we limit Africans and Indians. So, are we racist against them? Well, we must be. Simples innit.

monkeyhanger wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:39 am

Cadwest wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:24 am The west did not start the war in Syria, it was a civil war that started as a direct result of the much vaunted Arab Spring which has turned out to be a disaster for the Middle East. The west only intervened once chemical weapons were used and rise of Isis that carried out wholesale massacre and attacks on the west. The illegal wars you speak of Andy were started by the big pro remain guy Tony Blair who should be prosecuted for war crimes and I hate to say that David Cameron was right and more help should of been given to the displaced people within safe countries in the region.

Bang on there - Blair is a war criminal IMO.

Yup. He should be tried.

Andy Beats wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:01 am

monkeyhanger wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:21 pm Does that concern make people racist? Not in my book.

Yes, actually, it does.
Because their arguments for being concerned are proven to be rubbish, time and time again.
Surveys that show these people aren't a drain on our system, they actually contribute more than they take.
Surveys that show that if it wasn't for the wars we had a hand in starting and perpetuating, they wouldn't have come here in the first place and will return ASAP.
Think about it, why the hell would you give up Syria for Wolverhampton if it wasn't for war?
So when these facts are presented and people still have concerns, it can only come down to racism.
The very definition of racism is distrust/dislike of others for no apparent reason other than their colour/origin.

None of what I wrote in the post you partially cite fits your definition of racism.

If we need workers of a certain skill set from outside the UK (be it from within or outside of the EU, we welcome them in. Foreign workers with a required skill set are beneficial to the economy. An influx of asylum seekers with little or no grasp of the English language, possibly poorly educated, with no relevant work skills are not going to benefit society as a whole.

If they risk their lives to get here (or mainland Europe) on tiny inflatables after handing over everything they own, many not making it and either losing their lives or their assets the best thing we can do for them and us is help stabilise their own country.

I'm pretty neutral on Brexit - I want to stay, but on better terms than we are on now. One thing I wouldn't do is label everyone that disagrees with my vote a racist, nor undermine democracy by whining on about having another referendum until I get the result I want.

monkeyhanger wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:05 pm If we need workers of a certain skill set from outside the UK (be it from within or outside of the EU, we welcome them in. Foreign workers with a required skill set are beneficial to the economy. An influx of asylum seekers with little or no grasp of the English language, possibly poorly educated, with no relevant work skills are not going to benefit society as a whole.

But it's been proven, time and time again, that even 'unskilled' immigrants are beneficial.
They do work others simply aren't prepared to do.
These people are prepared to work where British people would rather sneer and say "I'll stay on the dole, thanks"
Cleaners, fruit pickers etc.etc.
As for little or no grasp of the English language, it's often nonsense again.
In Syrian schools, English is taught from first grade.

English is taught from first grade, they must be bloody thick because when they get here, they've forgotten what they've been taught.

As For fruit and veg pickers, they get paid poorly, don't pay any tax, then claim benefits to make up their money. But their family's all use the NHS including the GP doctors, send their multitude of kids to the local schools, and send money home to their families to keep them fed and sheltered.

I was reading about the elder generation emigrating too Australia, if your past working age, you have to have in your bank after purchasing your home over £100,000 so your no drain on their society and have your own health insurance. That's how it should be here.
Lets see how beneficial they are in Scotland when you get independence and stay in the EU

silverhairs wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:04 pm English is taught from first grade, they must be bloody thick because when they get here, they've forgotten what they've been taught.

As For fruit and veg pickers, they get paid poorly, don't pay any tax, then claim benefits to make up their money. But their family's all use the NHS including the GP doctors, send their multitude of kids to the local schools, and send money home to their families to keep them fed and sheltered.

I was reading about the elder generation emigrating too Australia, if your past working age, you have to have in your bank after purchasing your home over £100,000 so your no drain on their society and have your own health insurance. That's how it should be here.
Lets see how beneficial they are in Scotland when you get independence and stay in the EU

As I said before....thinly veiled....

Andy Beats wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:44 pm

monkeyhanger wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:05 pm If we need workers of a certain skill set from outside the UK (be it from within or outside of the EU, we welcome them in. Foreign workers with a required skill set are beneficial to the economy. An influx of asylum seekers with little or no grasp of the English language, possibly poorly educated, with no relevant work skills are not going to benefit society as a whole.

But it's been proven, time and time again, that even 'unskilled' immigrants are beneficial.
They do work others simply aren't prepared to do.
These people are prepared to work where British people would rather sneer and say "I'll stay on the dole, thanks"
Cleaners, fruit pickers etc.etc.
As for little or no grasp of the English language, it's often nonsense again.
In Syrian schools, English is taught from first grade.

I think you're confusing economic migrants given the legal right to work here with asylum seekers and illegal immigrants (sometimes you can be both) to try and justify your argument.

Economic migrants usually haven't blown their life savings to get to the UK or wherever, they're not claiming asylum with just the clothes they're standing in. They also have the option of going back where they came from without fear of reprisals, or going elsewhere for better money.

How many asylum seekers from the likes of Syria, Iraq or other war torn countries do you think are attending or have attended school to have a good grasp of English - or Spanish/Italian if they land in those territorial waters on dinghies? That is if you really do have a good idea of the Syrian school curriculum. They're more likely to be taught French, being a former colony of France.

You may have noticed that, for the sake of social and economic stability, countries don't usually send an open invitation to the populations of countries where asylum would be a viable request due to war or persecution, nor do they provide transport to do so. If they did, you'd have millions of people from countries like Syria and Iraq lining up to come over. Imagine the impact of just a million of those people coming over, with the 10 biggest/richest nations picking up 100k people each.

Then they'd have to instantly find homes for them (we're constantly being told there aren't enough houses here already (certainly not affordable ones - hence generation rent). They won't get jobs instantly through official channels to pick up minimum wage. There's a lot of disruption and cost to society to deal with. That's a very small proportion of the affected people.

For those reasons alone, governments give aid and military support/policing rather than increasing the population by significant numbers instantly by welcoming everyone in who wants to, with or without a job.

Over the last 10 years, most working people in the UK have seen their wages stagnate and their employee benefits eroded due to greater competition - always someone willing to do the job for less, employer pension contributions whittle away to the statutory minimum, and the death of final salary pensions, statutory sick pay, bonuses getting rarer. Great for the employers but not the employees. That's not scaremongering, that's fact.

Of course, back in the late 70s and the 80s, Brita were doing the same, working in Poland and Germany. My Grandad spent most of the 80s working in Poland as a joiner.

I think also Andy has a rose tinted glasses view of immigration. Just an example of the worst side of it that clearly Andy has not encountered.

about 2 miles from us in little old sleepy Bournemouth there was a car wash, very popular with all the locals and "grokles" alike. 4 years later it turns out it is raided by the police and it was full of illegal immigrants being used a slave labour. Apparently these poor guys are brought over on a promise of work etc etc they end up living in garden sheds 30r 4 to a small shed and then working 7 days a week to pay off the travel fees. guess what they never earn enough to repay. This is happening all over Europe. Sex workers, beggars even fruit pickers.

There are millions of very successful immigrant's in the uk and around the world, they tend to be those that moved though the proper channels and had the right education and incentives. but there is also a huge hidden dark side that does not work well for anyone involved. Except the traffickers.

Please, to all of you, don't make further comments of a political nature in a forum/topic dedicated to the cars. IMHO has no sense.

Please, we must moderate our words when referring to other people that don't have the great fortune of living "for example" in a democracy as respectable and ancient as English democracy, it's a reference for many people of this world.

We are all aware of what happens (it's hard) and we want to show our opinion, but this is not the right place to do it.

I deeply thank all of you for taking my words into account. Thank you very much to all.

Andy Beats wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:44 pm

monkeyhanger wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:05 pm If we need workers of a certain skill set from outside the UK (be it from within or outside of the EU, we welcome them in. Foreign workers with a required skill set are beneficial to the economy. An influx of asylum seekers with little or no grasp of the English language, possibly poorly educated, with no relevant work skills are not going to benefit society as a whole.

But it's been proven, time and time again, that even 'unskilled' immigrants are beneficial.
They do work others simply aren't prepared to do.
These people are prepared to work where British people would rather sneer and say "I'll stay on the dole, thanks"
Cleaners, fruit pickers etc.etc.
As for little or no grasp of the English language, it's often nonsense again.
In Syrian schools, English is taught from first grade.

It has not been proven that all immigrants are beneficial. Firstly we have so many coming in to the country that we have a massive housing shortage, and young people today cannot afford their own home without the help of bank of mum and dad. Secondly services and infrastructure are stretched by the increase in population. This is not racism, it's simply fact. Whether or not you think the situation is good is for you to decide. It is true that overall they increase GDP, but big deal, more workers means more GDP. But do they increase GDP per head, which is the real measure?

The way the cost of an immigrant is worked out is often wrong. They work out how much they earn each year, and the amount they take from the state in the form of benefits, services etc and reach a conclusion. However, the true cost is over the lifetime, which includes care in old age, and hospital bills in later life. Those are not included. We currently have an aging population and one reason Nu Labour liked immigrants so much is that the influx of workers means more tax revenue to pay for todays pensioners. However this is a pyramid scheme. When the new workers age, who will pay their pensions? Of course, more immigrants.

You confuse managed immigration with unrestricted immigration. Almost everyone supports the former, and it is needed for the reasons you give. We need fruit pickers, though in the past they would return home out of season. Unrestricted immigration is not required, and it can be argued that it is not beneficial. What it does is keep wages down. It also allows British companies to employ unskilled labour rather than investing in technology to increase productivity. Obviously for some jobs unskilled labour is essential.

As for language skills, you might wish to go to Bradford and Luton, where you will find huge numbers of people who have lived in this country for years if not decades who cannot speak English. I know as I've lived in Luton. When I was young, a friend's mum only spoke Gujarati. His dad spoke enough English to get by. Nothing wrong with that, but I am pointing out that your facts are wrong.

Many countries in Europe have a huge influx of immigrants from war torn countries such as Syria. We don't have many, due to a sea border I guess. There is massive resentment against them. Sweden initially welcomed them with open hands. But most of them are young men, and with them has come an alarming rise in crime, including rape. Again this is fact backed by official Swedish statistics, not opinion. Not surprisingly the Swedes are changing their views on immigration. A key problem is that most are young men, and young men do commit more crimes on average, and that applies to non immigrants as much as immigrants. Secondly these young men are often from troubled backgrounds (due to war) and have numerous issues. Of course these issues to not apply to the vast majority of immigrants to this country, who come from stable countries.

As for immigrants in this country, I think you will find most people welcome immigrants including most Leave voters. Many of my friends at school were refugees. The problem is the number of immigrants. Now to say that if someone does not automatically welcome all immigrants that they are racist - and that is what you are saying - is frankly totally unacceptable. It is the politics of the gutter. If someone disagrees with you, you verbally abuse them. It is the modus operandi of many on the extreme Left, though I have no idea of your political leanings. Abd I've heard a number of British Asians originally from East Africa express concern at the current levels of immigration.

However, as I said, my primary motivation for voting leave was self determination.

By the way, you have openly accused people here of racism. You should be aware that libel is a criminal offence, and if someone here could be identified, then you could be open to prosecution. Frankly I think you are a nasty piece of work.