the engine thing ... putting the thread to bed

Chat about your MKIII (86C) inc GT/G40 Polo
GroovyCarrot
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Post by GroovyCarrot »

I'd say if the ridge is out of the way of the rings then just fitting new rings will do the job.. it's not ideal, obviously, but short of taking the block to a machine shop I don't think you'll get much better.

Unless the mk3 water pump is significantly different to the mk2 waterpump, which I don't think it is apart from the round teeth, you won't need sealant on it, the rubber O ring should do the job fine as long as you tighten the bolts properly.
Btw, don't re-use the sump gasket, get a new one, it's about £3-4 and they always leak, may as well replace it. I'd never reuse a gasket where possible.

Camshaft will be stiff, yeah. The valve springs have to be stiff in order to close the valves at high speeds - just try pushing down on a tappet and see how stiff it is. The cam belt is enormously strong, don't worry about that :)
LogIK
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Post by LogIK »

Yeah, you should replace all gaskets and I normally would myself, but I was going to re-use my sump one, as it is new.

You'll still need hylomar though, as you should use this for every oil gasket.

I've started building the engine back up again today. Came to fit the new piston rings, only to find out they are too thick to fit in the grooves! They're for a MK4 dammit.

That's another few days at least out of my time. Doubt this will be done for BVF :(

Had any luck with the piston rings, Tahrey?
amstrange1
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Post by amstrange1 »

LogIK wrote:You'll still need hylomar though, as you should use this for every oil gasket.
:?:

You don't need to use it at all, especially with genuine gaskets. In fact, VW advise against using any sealants at all.

I do love Hylomar, it's bloody brilliant stuff - and if you have to reuse old gaskets it can come in very very handy. But when fitting new gaskets it's just not necessary.
Tahrey1043
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Post by Tahrey1043 »

LogIK wrote:Sounds like your big ends have been overheating then, if they are blued. Lack of oil possibly.
It did get low enough a couple times to cause surge round high-G force corners (immediately checked & topped it after each time and paid much more attention after) but that was all.
More likely, if the haynes stuff is to be taken as gospel, is all that high speed, full throttle running centrifugally flung and impact-squished the oil out by equal turns.
If they are bad, what sort of condition are the journals in? :(
I know man, i know, but if i'm to take the clutch off i may as well replace the engine and box. There's a line unfortunately :( :(
I'm just praying on them having taken less stick than the big ends as they won't have had quite as much direct pounding from the actual pistons. Not none of course, but less. I'm taking comfort in the fact that the big ends weren't giving any trouble at all and still seemed to be well within size tolerance, if i was measuring them right...
There will be a ridge there, as there is mechanical contact between the piston rings and the bores, therefore wear will occur, leaving a ridge where the piston reaches TDC and the top compression ring is at it's highest point.. It's whether that ridge is still within tollerence that's the important thing.
Well, it's only in cylinder 1, and then only a 120-degree arc, which is a bit wierd (the others have visible carbon stains etc, but are smooth to the touch). I'm thinking maybe a slight lack of lube there compared to the others as thats where the most oil wetting was and the gasket looked to be in the worst state (left an awful lot of clag behind when i removed it and it still looks like it needs a scrub even though it's almost mirror smooth).
You'll have to get it measured up. When this is done, you can also check for ovality in the bores as well. If they are too worn and outside of the manufacturers tollerences, it should be re-bored and fitted with oversize pistons if you are going to make a propper job of it, but I doubt you'll want to do that.
Christ.... :D
Well you know your stuff and if i was going for the full, loving, no-expense spared job that'd certainly be on the agenda. But i have no micrometer or any of that stuff.
Are you going to get the bores honed?
wasn't going to as a matter of course, but with bore 1 i might see if that local tool shop hires hones out and whether they'd drop one off at my house one evening this week so that i could return it to their doorstep with a cheque attached the next day :lol: i have a suitable drill at least - makes a change.
(in fact i might have some reasonably suitable abrasive wheel already in the garage....)

Hylomar is what you need and you'll need it to seal other gaskets as well. GSF stock it.
agh....... what about halfords? still cant get at gsf again til the weekend, as ever, and i want to step the speed up a little (this bore trouble is a right blow).
is that *all* gaskets, or just reused ones? i have a fresh new all-seals kit..
The camshaft will not be 'easy' to turn, as remember you've got to give it enough force to compress the valve springs. If you want to turn it, screw the pulley bolt back is and use a 19mm socket on that to apply the force. Not much point anyway, as you won't be able to close all the valves, as two will always be open, unless you remove the camshaft.
Ah, wicked cool, thanks. Forgot about those close-in-1/1000th-of-a-second springs :D and also that TDC on piston 1 doesnt mean TDC on all cylinders, so there'll be some openage on 2 and 3.


EDIT --- ok, guess i'll skip the hylomar then and see what happens. If there's major leakage then i suppose i could, after they haven't been in too many miles, open it back up in the relevant places and add some of that stuff (though that's another round of head bolts etc if if starts leaking THERE..) .. hm. There might be more seals to replace than i fully realise at the moment as the pack GSF gave me looks VERY comprehensive.

bugger - i havent "properly" checked the piston rings yet, other than visually. i've left them in their sealed plastic packets so far to avoid contamination etc until it's actually time to check clearances, endgaps and so on (which i hope to do along with the refitting all in one 2-3 hour swoop). Hope they are actually the right size! What are our rights as regards return/replacement/refund if it's a case of them cocking up and supplying us with the wrong things?
They look right, guess its a matter of fitting them and seeing if, well, they do. Going to need them to get the thing running again in any shape or form now anyway - though the old ones came off surprisingly in one piece without distortion (for all 12!), i snapped a couple to use as C-section carbon scrapers...

and ditto i would liked to have got it going for BVF (thats the one down at 3 counties, right?), even if just to abandon on a stand with a "free to a good home" sign and the v5 + keys left on the dash..... but its looking like that could be unlikely now :( unless i have a purposefully incautious spurt. after all i want to have another bash at debubbling the worst part of the wings (and fixing the previous crappy so-called blend job i did) right before getting rid.
LogIK
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Post by LogIK »

You don't need to use it at all, especially with genuine gaskets. In fact, VW advise against using any sealants at all.
Really? I've just always used Hylomar on gaskets where oil is going to be present, especially where oil is under pressure. Although, one gasket that I would never use hylomar on is a HG. It's stuff worth having though, especially for common 'leaky' gaskets such as sump pan gasket and rocker cover gasket. Bloody brilliant stuff!
I'm taking comfort in the fact that the big ends weren't giving any trouble at all and still seemed to be well within size tolerance, if i was measuring them right...
But i have no micrometer or any of that stuff.
How did you manage to measure the journals up without a mic? :wink:


Anyhow, yeah, bit cheesed off about these piston rings. My dads going back for me today, so hopefully this time they will actually order the right ones, but god knows how long it's going to take them to get here.
GroovyCarrot
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Post by GroovyCarrot »

Tahrey1043 wrote: and ditto i would liked to have got it going for BVF (thats the one down at 3 counties, right?), even if just to abandon on a stand with a "free to a good home" sign and the v5 + keys left on the dash..... but its looking like that could be unlikely now :(
I may just have found a home for poppy, if you're interested.. friend of mine needs a cheap runabout for the summer and possibly through uni, and likes the idea of having a polo. Let me know if you're interested and I'll sort something out.
LogIK
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Post by LogIK »

Just a quick update on the Piston Ring situtation.

GSF have now admitted that they cannot get hold of them at all, and this applies to all branches.

Have you tried ECP? They list them at £18.56, but don't know whether that is for the set.


:x
GroovyCarrot
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Post by GroovyCarrot »

They list them as £44.25 for me :? Piston rings aren't different across the range are they? I thought they were standard for all of the small block 1.0/1.1/1.3 engines apart from the G40..
LogIK
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Post by LogIK »

Part number 307440491?

What's the part number for them? I suppose that's not too bad if it's for the complete set and they are decent quality ones.

I didn't think the rings changed over the range either. I'm pretty sure they are the same from mk1 - mk3, but they must have changed at mk4.
GroovyCarrot
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Post by GroovyCarrot »

Different part number, that's odd..

SM n/a 307440201 PISTON RINGS (SET) GO/JE 1.05/1.3 HZ MH -86
£44.25
LogIK
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Post by LogIK »

Damn, they must be different.

As posted on Porka, my dads just been to ECP and they don't stock the MK3 ones, only those ones that you have found.

They must be different though.
GroovyCarrot
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Post by GroovyCarrot »

Edit: Never mind.
I'm still sure they're the same though, if they're listed as one and the same part number on gsf..
LogIK
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Post by LogIK »

These are the three results you get from GSF amd they're all the same part:

16534 PISTON RING SET(4 PISTON) PO 1.3 75 BHP All
16534 PISTON RING SET(4 PISTON) PO 1.3 55 BHP 8/83 >
16534 PISTON RING SET(4 PISTON) PO 1.05 All

The second one is a MK2 isn't it, therefore, what you are saying, GC, is right. However, ECP list a completely different part for the MK2.

I think the only way to find out is to measure them up.
amstrange1
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Post by amstrange1 »

LogIK wrote:
You don't need to use it at all, especially with genuine gaskets. In fact, VW advise against using any sealants at all.
Really? I've just always used Hylomar on gaskets where oil is going to be present, especially where oil is under pressure. Although, one gasket that I would never use hylomar on is a HG. It's stuff worth having though, especially for common 'leaky' gaskets such as sump pan gasket and rocker cover gasket. Bloody brilliant stuff!
There's no Hylomar on my G40 engine, that was fully rebuilt with all new gaskets. With a fresh sump gasket, as long as your sump's reasonably straight, you can normally torque it back up so that it doesn't leak. As for rocker cover gaskets, genuine VW ones are miles better than the cheap ECP/GSF ones.

I'd regard Hylomar as a handy 'cure' if things aren't quite right, but wouldn't use it from the outset.

If ETKA's correct, then all the 1.3 engines use the same rings - with the exception of the 3F. The 3F shares its rings with the AAU and that's it as far as Polos go. If you had a PY/NZ/AAV 1272cc Mk3 Polo you could use the Mk2 Polo rings, but not with a 3F or AAU.

So basically that means that you're both after the same kind of rings - which I'm pretty sure that ECP stock from looking at their website. Try a set of KS rings, ECP part number 307440491 £18.56+VAT.
LogIK
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Post by LogIK »

Yeah, those are the ones that I was after. Got my dad to go in while I was in work and he rang me back to tell me they had told him they can no longer stock KS parts due to licencing reasons, or something along those lines. Sod's law basically.

I've just found that out as well, Andy. The AAU and 3F rings are a different part to the rest of the 1272cc engines. How odd!
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