Do I have cruise or not?

[Andy Beats]

^ EV ownership is still expensive compared to the alternatives, all in cost. A mate of mine got a Leaf a few years ago as a company car and was amazed at the service cost, considering the service consists of checks and nothing really to replace unless the brakes need doing (which are extra) - £158 for the service. That's about the same as a minor service on a Golf, where they actually do things like change the oil and filter as well as checks.


Given the Polo is the almost the same size as the Golf inside (and only a foot shorter outside, and the Leaf is a little smaller inside than the Golf, even if it's big back end make it seem bigger, compare a Polo GTI+ against a new Leaf Tekna, both at the cheapest available broker prices vs GFV (both cars should get more than that at p/x time, but they are absolute minimums), based on 36 months PCP (no deposit down on either) and cash price lost money. Both have a similar level of equipment, not exactly the same, but substitutions add up to about same net worth.


Leaf 40kW Tekna = £25383 inclusive of incentives and discount taken into account, GFV is £11705 . That's £13678 lost as a cash buy, or PCPing a balance of £25383 over 36 months, it'll cost you about £437 per month.

Polo GTI+ = £20395 >11500 inclusive of discount taken into account, GFV is £11500 . That's £8895 lost as a cash buy, or PCPing a balance of £20395 over 36 months, it'll cost you about £276 per month.

£161pm buys a lot of unleaded petrol.


the 40kW Tekna will cost about £5.60 to charge, based on 14p per kWh domestic tariff, and does a reported 168 miles per charge on the WLTP cycle. Realistically it'll do 100 miles average over the seasons. That's 5.6p a mile.


Charging non-domestically usually costs significantly more (1.5 times to 2 times).

A Gallon of Unleaded is £5.17 (@113p/L).The GTI seems to be averaging 35mpg for the people here, around the doors. That's 14.7p a mile for the GTI+


10000 miles costs the Leaf £560 per year on domestic electricity on an average domestic tariff.
10000 miles costs the Polo £1470 per year at the pumps.

£910 fuel saving to the Leaf per year, £2730 saving over the 36 month term, offset by:-

£4783 depreciation saving to the Polo GTI+ over the 36 month term as a cash buyer
£5796 PCP saving (monthly saving x 36 months) over the 36 month term.


Andybeats says that acceleration is good on EVs, and it is over 0-62, but most of that is in the lower end 0-30, in gear acceleration 30-70 is usually marginally better on the equivalent output petrol or turbo diesel, then the EV really drops off (which is only really a problem if you like driving on unrestricted autobahns.


So the GTI+ is quicker, convenient to fill, equivalently equipped, and will cost the PCPer £85 a month less to stick one on their drive for (or anywhere else - they don't need to be parked on their own property to get refuelled)and provide 30000 miles worth of fuel. Insurance is very reasonable of the GTI+ thanks to standard ACC, Nissan seem to charge almost as much for service "checks" as VW does to get an oil change service done.

Run those same numbers against the Golf GTI PP 245 or GTD and you still end up in the black vs the Tekna.

EV does not add up...yet. They need to get a lot cheaper (i'm sure they will in time).

I don't know what you mean by "as good as the petroleum equivalent and costs no more to buy/run"
As good in what respect?
I mean, if you're going to boil it down to something as petty as exhaust noise (some people do) then you're a lost case.
They always accelerate faster than their ICE equivalents - is that not better?
They're quieter, they're smoother, they have far less to go wrong - is that not better?
They produce far less street level Co2 and make cities a nicer place to be in terms of air and noise - is that not better?
Yes they cost more to buy, but many find the greatly reduced running costs makes that a moot point - is that not better?

Definitely not talking about exhaust noise - Soundaktors can add some internal fakery if that's your thing.
I was meaning EVs having the same level of convenience as a petrol/diesel car in terms of range and ease of charging - and being no more expensive in overall costs.
Are they really quicker overall? Nope. Quicker off the line to 30mph (just) than their same PS/kWh equivalents, then they do tail off. most people find in gear acceleration a more practical measure of performance.
Less to go wrong? Less mechanical components, yes. It's usually not mechanicals that let down modern cars if they're well maintained, it's the electric/electronics, and EVs are full of all that stuff.
Still chucking out CO2, but leave it at the coal fired power station instead.
Cost more in depreciation than the fuel savings.

Yet plenty of people on EV forums are saving so much on fuel every month that the cars pay for themselves.
As for acceleration, it's the ease of doing it that makes the difference.
Electric car, plant the foot, no fuss, no drama, they just take off.
An ICE car may well manage the same time if he revs the t**s off the thing and hammers the clutch and tyres, but not many are willing to do that.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised an ICE forum is so anti-EV, I'm just surprised so many are arguing from a position of complete ignorance.

[silverhairs]

You've got to hand it to Andy, who keeps on getting knocked down, keeps getting up again with his belief that EV cars are better, though they cost a third more than the equivalent petrol car . Then comes back with "arguing from a position of complete ignorance" is a bit strong .

The same Andy who didn't know if his car had cruise or not . I think it better if we just changed the subject, he has his thoughts and the rest of us just keep running our petrol cars

PS: The government are now complaining about wood burning stoves, giving out too many emissions, I wonder if Andy has a wood burning stove

[Andy Beats]

You've got to hand it to Andy, who keeps on getting knocked down, keeps getting up again with his belief that EV cars are better, though they cost a third more than the equivalent petrol car . Then comes back with "arguing from a position of complete ignorance" is a bit strong .

The same Andy who didn't know if his car had cruise or not . I think it better if we just changed the subject, he has his thoughts and the rest of us just keep running our petrol cars

PS: The government are now complaining about wood burning stoves, giving out too many emissions, I wonder if Andy has a wood burning stove

You absolutely are arguing from a place of ignorance, as you've never even driven one, let alone owned one.
Not ignorance as in 'being thick', there's more than one meaning to the word.
It's all assumption, guesswork, Daily Mail articles and barstool head shaking over a pint of stinky nun.
Seriously, go drive one and then at least you'd have a basis to have an opinion.
The increased cost to get into one has already been covered, but shall we try again....?
Many people are saving so much on fuel costs that the increased cost of the car becomes moot - let that sink in....please.
Can't accuse me of being blinkered, seeing as I'm perfectly open to owning either option, depending on circumstances.

[Leif]

Many people are saving so much on fuel costs that the increased cost of the car becomes moot - let that sink in....please.

Nope.

I worked out the cost of an electric car and compared it to a petrol. The petrol won hands down. I do ~25,000 miles a year. Looking at the Nissan Leaf, mine would lose a significant capacity and hence range within 4 years, rendering it useless. The cost of a new battery is huge. Oh, and my calculations were based on real life data from owners of the Nissan Leaf.

The problem with many if not most electric car owners is that they don't do the basic maths. They suck up the sales talk about how cheap they are to refuel, and stop there. They also enjoy virtue signalling: "Ooooh, look at me, I'm driving an electric car, aren't I green, and good, and virtuous". But when you do the maths they actually work out more polluting as the batteries are full of non green toxic chemicals. Same with hybrids. The stats show that most are bought by fleets, and rarely use the battery on its own. The reason fleets buy them is the government grants. So in short the fleets are screwing the rest of us, all legal and above board of course, and can you blame them?

Oh and I didn't even consider range anxiety which rules them out for me ... they are a fail for most of us.

[Andy Beats]

Many people are saving so much on fuel costs that the increased cost of the car becomes moot - let that sink in....please.

Nope.

I worked out the cost of an electric car and compared it to a petrol. The petrol won hands down. I do ~25,000 miles a year. Looking at the Nissan Leaf, mine would lose a significant capacity and hence range within 4 years, rendering it useless. The cost of a new battery is huge. Oh, and my calculations were based on real life data from owners of the Nissan Leaf.

I'm still a member of various EV forums, and Leaf specific ones.
I honestly cannot remember a single instance of any Leaf owner reporting any significant drop in battery capacity in only four years, regardless of mileage done in that time.
There are several taxi companies running them at over 200000 miles and still fantastic battery health, only the rest of the car is starting to deteriorate (as would any car after 200K of taxi use)
And even if battery capacity does, for some weird reason, fall under 75% before 100000 miles, Nissan will replace them free.
100000 miles/5 years for 24/30 Leaf.
100000 miles / 8 years for the 40 Leaf.
But it's just not happening!
As for being a "fail for most of us", this simply isn't the case either.
It's been proven the vast majority of people drive distances that would be perfectly suited to electric vehicles.
Range anxiety my backside, the vast majority of people would have no range anxiety at all doing 150-200 miles between charges (as is the norm now, even in bad weather).

[monkeyhanger]

Andy: By your own admission you're priced out of the market for a new EV right now...because they are expensive for what they are. On your tiny mileage, the potential fuel savings are pennies.

Cheaper fuelling does not offset the higher initial cost and depreciation, unless you're doing upwards of 30k miles a year in my comparison, but even that doesn't ring true because if you're doing 30k miles a year, you suffer more depreciation and service costs than the average driver.

If you're doing 30k miles a year, you're averaging 82 miles day - which means squeaky bum time on your last 10 miles home in the Winter if in a 20kW or below capacity car with a real life winter range of 70-75 miles.

People are very aware of the money they physically spend out of their wallet (e.g. filling up), but don't think of the money creeping out of their account in direct debit (e.g. PCP payment). Funny how the mind works.

[Andy Beats]

Andy: By your own admission you're priced out of the market for a new EV right now...because they are expensive for what they are. On your tiny mileage, the potential fuel savings are pennies.

Cheaper fuelling does not offset the higher initial cost and depreciation, unless you're doing upwards of 30k miles a year in my comparison, but even that doesn't ring true because if you're doing 30k miles a year, you suffer more depreciation and service costs than the average driver.

If you're doing 30k miles a year, you're averaging 82 miles day - which means squeaky bum time on your last 10 miles home in the Winter if in a 20kW or below capacity car.

Correct, for my mileage the savings aren't fantastic, but saving money wasn't why I wanted one.
Nor were 'green' issues.
I wanted one because I like gadgets and they are the best town cars you'll ever drive (automatic/silent/instant acceleration).
They're perfectly fine on faster roads too, it's just something I rarely do these days.
So when I was offered a Leaf for my personal PCP budget of £200 a month, I snapped it up.

Yes, 82 miles is stretching it in a 24KW car, so you go for a 30KW or higher that will do it comfortably.
Either that or you go for the cheaper 24KW and accept you will have to charge somewhere en-route, a 20 minute rapid charge would do it.
As for depreciation, I've covered that in general, but you'd still be surprised what a high mileage electric car fetches.
Even in the unlikely event the battery has degraded significantly, the range will still be fine for someone doing school runs/shopping.
Honestly, I promise you, even very high mileage Leafs are snapped up.
There's also a growing range of aftermarket specialists who will replace/upgrade batteries, that side of things will only get stronger.

Service costs, yes Nissan dealer are ripping people off.
Again, more and more aftermarket specialists doing Leaf services for £90(ish), that includes a battery health check.

[Leif]

Many people are saving so much on fuel costs that the increased cost of the car becomes moot - let that sink in....please.

Nope.

I worked out the cost of an electric car and compared it to a petrol. The petrol won hands down. I do ~25,000 miles a year. Looking at the Nissan Leaf, mine would lose a significant capacity and hence range within 4 years, rendering it useless. The cost of a new battery is huge. Oh, and my calculations were based on real life data from owners of the Nissan Leaf.

I'm still a member of various EV forums, and Leaf specific ones.
I honestly cannot remember a single instance of any Leaf owner reporting any significant drop in battery capacity in only four years, regardless of mileage done in that time.
There are several taxi companies running them at over 200000 miles and still fantastic battery health, only the rest of the car is starting to deteriorate (as would any car after 200K of taxi use)
And even if battery capacity does, for some weird reason, fall under 75% before 100000 miles, Nissan will replace them free.
100000 miles/5 years for 24/30 Leaf.
100000 miles / 8 years for the 40 Leaf.
But it's just not happening!
As for being a "fail for most of us", this simply isn't the case either.
It's been proven the vast majority of people drive distances that would be perfectly suited to electric vehicles.
Range anxiety my backside, the vast majority of people would have no range anxiety at all doing 150-200 miles between charges (as is the norm now, even in bad weather).

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/nissan-lea ... city-range
https://electrek.co/2018/03/26/nissan-l ... t-program/

Do you have a source for your assertions?

[Leif]

If you're doing 30k miles a year, you're averaging 82 miles day - which means squeaky bum time on your last 10 miles home in the Winter if in a 20kW or below capacity car with a real life winter range of 70-75 miles.

Oh my, I don't like the sound of squeaky bum time. Think I'll stick to petrol thanks.

[Andy Beats]

Do you have a source for your assertions?

Yes, join any EV forum where the cars are discussed on a daily basis, same as here.
BTW, christ knows where that 'nimblefins' are getting their data from, but it's absolute bullcrap!
Never heard their name mentioned once on a massive EV forum in a year, that maybe says something.
But 1 bar lost by 24000 miles???
2 bars lost by 32000 miles???
Honestly this is just so far from owners' real experiences it's laughable.

[Andy Beats]

https://drive-green.co.uk/2018/11/01/ni ... eage-hero/

88% battery health after 120000 miles.
1% loss of battery per 10000 miles.
And this is doing over 4000 rapid charges, which are supposed to bad for the battery (more barstool nonsense)
Let's see if our ICE engines are still only 12% less efficient after 120000 miles, shall we?
ICE engines lose power, torque and efficiency with age.

[Leif]

https://drive-green.co.uk/2018/11/01/ni ... eage-hero/

88% battery health after 120000 miles.
1% loss of battery per 10000 miles.
And this is doing over 4000 rapid charges, which are supposed to bad for the battery (more barstool nonsense)
Let's see if our ICE engines are still only 12% less efficient after 120000 miles, shall we?
ICE engines lose power, torque and efficiency with age.

The link you have posted is from a company that is selling them. And it is one sample. Then again you have past experience of thinking that all cars of a given make and model can be judged from a sample of one.

Incidentally, how about you cut out the personal abuse?

[Andy Beats]

The link you have posted is from a company that is selling them. And it is one sample. Then again you have past experience of thinking that all cars of a given make and model can be judged from a sample of one.

What has them selling them got to do with it, are you suggesting they're making it up?
I can find you plenty more examples of high mileage Leafs with fantastic battery health.
If you like.

[Leif]

Oh my, I don't like the sound of squeaky bum time. Think I'll stick to petrol thanks.

If you buy an inappropriate car for your needs, you deserve squeaky bum times.
I mean, I dare say I'd get a squeaky bum taking my Polo into a muddy field.
I dare say a Land Rover owner would get a squeaky bum throwing it around a twisty road.
You're the idiot for buying an inappropriate car, simple as that.

Yet more personal abuse.

[Andy Beats]

Yet more personal abuse.

Look, I've already explained when I say "you" I don't specifically mean 'you'
It's a figure of speech I assumed everyone knew about.
As I also said before, I will make sure to use the term 'one' from now on, so it can't be misconstrued as aimed at anyone in particular.