Help with 6C GTI

[benhowarth6]

Hello!

It's been a while since I've been on here, I use to own a 6R GTI but moved onto something else after too many issues. However I've been offered a good deal on a new 6C GTI and I'm considering a move back.

The dilemma I have is choosing manual or DSG. I loved the DSG in the 6R and I've been driving a manual for 3 years now but considering I spend a good amount of time in traffic I'm considering getting a DSG again. As the torque figures are different for both the manual and DSG are there any noticeable differences when driving or does the DSG make up for it with the faster changes?

Also my first 6R GTI did have a few issues with the DSG not selecting gears have they improved the new box at all?

Thanks for your help guys!

Ben

[Guy]

I have a 6C GTI with the manual box. I find that all my overtaking manoeuvres can be done in one gear - third if in a hurry or fourth if not. Third would potentially allow the 70 mph limit to be exceeded by a very illegal margin. And single carriageway A roads are restricted to 60mph or less.

The torque curve on the 1.8 engine with the manual box is quoted as 320 Nm flat from 1450 rpm to 4200 rpm. For the DSG box it is 250Nm from 1250-5300rpm.

So the in-gear torque of the manual car's engine is 28% higher than for the automatic over most of the rev range. I haven't driven a DSG but I would expect that to be quite a noticeable difference and in fact some road tests I've seen have said the same.

On a standing start acceleration test the DSG may be as quick or quicker by virtue of its near instantaneous changes. But for typical A road driving where overtaking, apart from an initial change down which anyway can often be preselected in advance of commencing the manoeuvre, I suspect the manual is the faster.

[rm55mcc]

Manual all the way [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[joe6]

I think Guy sums it up nicely. If you want the overtaking performance then manual and you don't have the extra servicing cost of the DSG either.

[Guy]

I slightly oversimplified the situation with my previous response as I didn't mention the effect of torque multiplication by the gearbox. Given that these engines have (apparently) constant torque over a wide rev range then at any given speed it will be possible to be within the flat torque rev range in more than one gear.

To take an example, with a manual GTI as an approximation the gearing in third gives around 16 mph per 1000 rpm and in fourth the figure is 20 mph per 1000 rpm.

So at 50 mph in third the engine will be turning at just over 3,000 rpm whereas in fourth it will be 2,500 rpm. If maximum acceleration is demanded at this speed then the torque at the wheels will be higher in third than fourth in the ratio 20:16 ie 25% greater.

Now the DSG box has seven ratios as opposed to the Manual box's six. So there is the likelihood that the DSG box has a gear ratio which is just a little lower than the manual box's third gear ratio. This will give a slightly greater torque multiplication effect. And as the DSG engine's 250 Nm torque is constant up to a higher number of revs, this torque can be maintained up to a road speed equal or greater than the point at which the manual car's 320 Nm torque is starting to fall away.

Even so I think the 28% engine torque advantage of the manual will outweigh the DSG in nearly all situations. 28% is just too big a gap to be closed by the effects of a wider but lower torque band when no manual gear changes are involved.

[C_Randell_23]

I have driven both, and i now own a manual. The DSG gave noticeable less kick in the back compared to the manual so you will notice a difference, the manual pulls hard from 40 mph in 3rd all the way to 105 mph in gear 3 (pushing the engine to 7,000 rpm mind you) therefore for most country roads and overtaking manoeuvres you never need to change from gear 3 unless you really want to break the law. Also the DSG is effectively an automated manual using a clutch pack instead of a torque converter, this means that you should treat the box as a manual in tight traffic to prevent excessive clutch wear, meaning that there is pretty much no point in the DSG. VW don't even have the confidence in the gearbox lasting the warranty period on 236 lb/ft so i wouldn't trust it either with a tuning box or a map if you have one planned.

[MczZippy]

it all depends how you drive, i had the dsg on the last fabia VRS as it was fantastic! never missed or hesitated at all, i think its about adapting your driving style to your equipment. again, in a straight drag race, the DSG can change gear far quicker than manual so it does negate most of the extra torque the manual has. i chose DSG on my new gti due to doing a lot of driving for work.

Just a thought If auto's were worse/slower/less reliable than manuals, why do F1 and rally cars use a form of them (sequential)??

[C_Randell_23]

Hi McZippy, The sequential gearbox in a F1 car is there because they do reduce the gear change speed from 1 sec to around 0.1 seconds and allow hands to be on the wheel constantly. The DSG box on the Golf R and Golf GTI do make the car faster as they are the 6 speed versions that can take more torque, hence the car has same torque levels as a manual.

We are just talking in the case of the Polo GTI that features the 7 speed that can not take as much torque. Believe me I have driven both in a straight line full throttle and the manual is faster no doubt, the fast gear changes simply cant compensate for a 52lb/ft torque deficit. I tested both before i purchased to make sure i made the right choice.

Regarding straight line speed the manual can do 65ish in second and over 100 in gear 3, the dsg has much shorter ratios meaning there are more shifts required meaning yes you have a much faster shift (about 65% i believe, don't quote me on it though) with dsg, but you also have to shift many more times which levels the playing field slighty before you even get to the 52 lb/ft less torque, which is around 22%.

If you are using he car as a commuter there is a strong case for the DSG box, but if its a car to enjoy then my personal opinion is manual all the way, with sport pack.