"Tick" from fuel pump???

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wolfie
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"Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by wolfie » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:30 pm

Sitting in the car fiddling with the dashcam, I had with the engine running with door open. I happened to notice that I could here a "Ticking" noise coming from beneath the car. I had a little listen and it appears to be coming from the area where the fuel filter is located just by the side of the fuel tank. I got a long screwdriver and placed it on the fuel filter and I can hear quite a loud tick. (if I increase the revs even a tiny bit the "tick" disappears)

Now I know the Tsi's have a lift pump in the tank and a high pressure pump driven from the engine. I stuck my "listening stick" on the engine pump and while I can hear it tapping away it sounds like what I'd expect to hear. Now if the lift pump is getting ready to fail might the clicking be the first signs? I think the TSi lift pump also has a PWM pump controller thingy just above the tank. Are they known to fail?

Also do the fuel filters have a non-return valve in them? might that be ticking?

(2011, 1.2Tsi. CBZB)

matthew.bicknell
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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by matthew.bicknell » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:01 am

I believe I have heard a similar noise to you. When my car is idling it makes a ticking noise that can be heard when inside or outside the car. It is loudest at the back right side underneath. I have not looked into it yet but have noticed a few things:

1. The noise disappears when the air con is on and idling, have you noticed this?
2. I have not noticed the noise as much after I've fully filled the tank with fuel, have you noticed this?

My noise also disappeared as soon as I increased the revs ever so slightly

I have a 2015 Polo 1.2 TSi.

Matt

wolfie
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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by wolfie » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:43 am

Cheers Matt.

I had a very brief Google for any information I could find, which actually wasn't very much.

However I came across a couple of things that I need to find some more info on. The lift pump is actually a rotary pump so is unlikely to cause a "tick" as such. If you sit in the car when it's been stood for a while, open the door and turn on the ignition you can hear a little buzz from the pump as it primes. (I think I may have even heard mine prime when simply opening the drivers door) However the pumps on the Tsi engines (and possibly others) have a little PMW (Pulse Width Modulation) control unit that sits just above the tank. While highly unlikely it is possible the pump is being turned on & off rapidly for some reason.

The high pressure pump at the front is pulsatile as it operates directly off the cam and is at very high pressure. It may just be that pressure pulses are travelling back down the fuel lines.

I think that fuel filter also contains a-non return pressure valve. Apparently on Golf 2.0 Tsi engines there are a couple of variants that have different pressure settings. My thoughts are that it as appears noisiest at the filter itself, it may just be the non return valve "ticking" open and closed as it sees the pressure pulses form the high pressure pump end.

I think the cheapest and easiest thing for me to try would be simply swapping the fuel filter. Mine was actually swapped at the last service and I think they used a MANN filter as opposed to a genuine Vdud. (I use an Indie now) I think they are around £30 a pop, so as the price of bits WV bits go, not a fortune. Sods law is I filled up at the weekend so I'll have to do some miles to drain the tank down a little. (though I think they are set up in such a way that it doesn't matter how much fuel is in the tank.)

1. The noise disappears when the air con is on and idling, have you noticed this? (Short answer is I don't know, I rarely run my aircon. I like the windows open.. LOL)
2. I have not noticed the noise as much after I've fully filled the tank with fuel, have you noticed this? (I think it may be the other way round on mine as I've only noticed it since filling up. Though I don't really know)

My noise also disappeared as soon as I increased the revs ever so slightly ( Mine is the same, even a tiny increase in revs and the noise stops completely)


I have my suspicions that VW would label it as a "trait of the car" and it's simply luck that I've not heard it up to now.


Thanks for the reply.

matthew.bicknell
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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by matthew.bicknell » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:31 pm

Did you have any luck finding out what it was?

Mine is still making the noise, going to call the dealer and see if they can have a look at it. It sounds like its coming from the fuel filter area on my car just like yours.

Here's a link to my onedrive where I have a video of the noise: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AkMrqw9ifexFnDNgHv7snELkfvlJ
Is that the same as your noise?

Cheers

Matt

wolfie
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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by wolfie » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:05 am

Thanks for that Mathew.

I've not pursued it any further as yet. Aside from the appearently new "tick" it seems to be running OK. I'll try and get a similar video of mine over the weekend for comparison. I was of the oppinion that on mine the noise was loudest at the fuel filter itself, but it does sound very much like that. That said I didn't get quite as fat under the car as you managed.

Mine is due for service in the not too distant future, so I was going to ask them to have a listen and see what they think. My first thought was to simply replace the fuel filter first as it's easiest and cheapest. ( I priced them up, they are a shade under £30) However I checked my last service and it's marked as being changed and actually still looks like new under the car. (I know it doesn't mean that it can't be faulty.)
A neighbour has a set of ramps so I'll see if I can borrow them and have a better look.


As a by the by, I checked the screw that tightens the plastic bracket that holds the filter in place, and found it to be very rusty. I happened to have some stainless steel self tapping screws of the same size so replaced it while I was poking about.

matthew.bicknell
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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by matthew.bicknell » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:55 pm

Hi wolfie,

Did you get anywhere with this?

I took it to the dealers to have a quick look and they reckon it might be coming from the fuel pump (disconnected it and the noise stopped)... It could well be the filter though.

Let me know if you have anymore info

cheers,

Matt

wolfie
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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by wolfie » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:51 am

matthew.bicknell wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:55 pm
Hi wolfie,

Did you get anywhere with this?

I took it to the dealers to have a quick look and they reckon it might be coming from the fuel pump (disconnected it and the noise stopped)... It could well be the filter though.

Let me know if you have anymore info
cheers,

Matt

Hi Matt.

I'm no further on. My car is due for a service within about the next 4 weeks or so it will go on the list of issues to look at. Though I did compare the noises coming from mine to the video's you posted and I'd say mine is the same.

A quick 30 second 'Google' has new feed pumps ranging in price from £210 ish, to over £300. I can't find any high-pressure pumps listed, but I dread to think how much one might be.

Are you still under warranty?

matthew.bicknell
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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by matthew.bicknell » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:21 pm

Unfortunately my warranty ran out at the end of March. VW will not change the fuel pump as good will either which I am disappointed about.

Let me know if changing the fuel filter fixes the noise (assuming you are still planning on changing it). I am tempted to get it changed but feel it would be a waste of money if it does not fix the issue.

Have you lifted the rear right bench seat and put your ear to the black round gasket above the fuel pump? I can hear the noise but it's not overly loud so I still cant be 100% sure its the pump.

Thanks for your help so far looks like we have the same issue!

wolfie
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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by wolfie » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:18 pm

matthew.bicknell wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:21 pm
Unfortunately my warranty ran out at the end of March. VW will not change the fuel pump as good will either which I am disappointed about.

Let me know if changing the fuel filter fixes the noise (assuming you are still planning on changing it). I am tempted to get it changed but feel it would be a waste of money if it does not fix the issue.

Have you lifted the rear right bench seat and put your ear to the black round gasket above the fuel pump? I can hear the noise but it's not overly loud so I still cant be 100% sure its the pump.

Thanks for your help so far looks like we have the same issue!
I'm the same as you, I have had a listen with the seat lifted and while I can hear the little "tick, tick, tick" I'm not convinced it is the source of the noise. I'll have another listen over the weekend and pop the rubber gasket off so I can listen directly to the top of the pump. When I initially listened to mine I sort of convinced myself it was actually loudest at the filter itself (I just used a long screwdriver and listened to the end while touching the filter, etc.)

Mine is due for a service in the none too distant future, so I'm torn between sticking a new filter on, just to see if it sorts it, or just ask them for their oppinion. If ist sunny over the weekend I might just end up doing it, to rule it out.

Having had my car in for a warranty paint-fault, I know from experience that they are not as forthcoming or customer friendly as you would hope. I had a little Google and the lift pump is potentially DIY fix. The cost of a new pump is not insignificant. I had a quick look on Eurocarparts & GSF and they range from £200-300+ So before spending that sort of money I'd want to be sure it would fix the problem.

Thing is it may simply be a "trait" some you happen to hear, while others are quiet. (Or have VW already agreed they think it's a failing lift pump)

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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by matthew.bicknell » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:58 pm

Let me know if you change the filter and it fixes the issue? I got a quote for a fuel filter and labour at just over £50

I have put a claim in with VW UK to try and get the fuel pump replaced as I am not paying £300-400 on the car.

Been very disappointed with my polo in recent months, have had several issues with it...my previous cheaper cars seemed to be better built than this polo!

wolfie
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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by wolfie » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:42 pm

matthew.bicknell wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:58 pm
Let me know if you change the filter and it fixes the issue? I got a quote for a fuel filter and labour at just over £50

I have put a claim in with VW UK to try and get the fuel pump replaced as I am not paying £300-400 on the car.

Been very disappointed with my polo in recent months, have had several issues with it...my previous cheaper cars seemed to be better built than this polo!
I priced a genuine filter up at smidge over £29. It looks to be about 10-15mins to fit one, so that doesn't sound too bad taking into account VW labour rates. (you can't sneeze in a VW dealership for less than £50 :roll: ) I think you're quite justified in feeling disappointed, especially if the car has a full service history and is only just outside the warranty period. While I probably wouldn't expect them to stand the full cost, I would have expected a generous good will gesture.

Now I like my little Polo, but compared to my previous Vdubs it does feel like it's had the quality engineered out of it, rather than being built to a level of quality it feels like it has been built to a price. As mine is a five door it was built in Uitenhage, South Africa, I don't know if that makes things worse or better. It's definitely made worse by VW dealers being rubbish. In my experience they're much, much worse than they were 20 years back.

While up to present the car has never let me down it feels like starting to accumulate a few niggles, and it's only a matter of time before I have to deal with a big bill. I had a paint fault early on that was done under warranty, but I had to push it rather than it simply being done as a matter of course. Plus when I took the warranty rep to one, side she basically said the paint warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Likewise mine is an early Tsi that falls into those that may possibly suffer from cam chain stretch. You'd have thought they would have done a recall or at least a free check as a minimum. Plus as we've been chatting here about it's new "Tick!" So I guess I would say I'm in the same boat and the car just hasn't lived up to expectations. (Even though it goes quite well)

I bought mine new and it's turned 7 years old now. That said it's been well cared for and only has tiny miles at 27K. I don't have a lot on spare cash so I'm in two minds as to just get rid and buy something newer, or spend a bit and have the cam chain done for peace of mind and keep it. If I do swap it, it would probably be for a CityGo or an Up!, maybe even go a bit mad and buy something Japanese or Korean as I no longer really need anything more than a shopping trolley for pottering about in.


Let me know how you get on with the warranty dept. :)

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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by matthew.bicknell » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:04 am

Thanks for that wolfie! I have not had a VW before this one (3 years old now) so have not had any previous experience with them.

The dealership said that the goodwill got rejected but I am able to open a case with VW directly which is what i've done.

Did you change the fuel filter? If so is there any difference in sound?

Also, does the tick disappear when you turn the A/C on? In my car it does which is odd.

I had been tempted to look at the new Polo until these problems had developed but I am now tempted to either look at the A3 or maybe a Fiesta as I have had several issues with this Polo and am losing faith in VW.

wolfie
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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by wolfie » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:39 am

Not been near the car this weekend apart from giving it a quick wash. I have a bit of foam squeezed down where the fuel lines emerge into the engine bay and I did renew that in the hope the "tick" might just be a rattle from the fuel lines and it my help. But I've not tested it as yet.

I will try turning on the Air-con and see if it makes a difference. I know even a tiny rise in rpm makes it stop.

I've been running Vdubs since about 1993, so what's that 25 odd years. I wouldn't call myself a die hard VW fanboy in anyway. It's just when the time came round to swap they always offered me the best trade-in price and did a deal. So it's been Golf MK2-1.6, MK3-1.8 Driver, Mk4-2.0GTi then Polo 1.9TDI Sport and finally my current Polo. Prior to that 3 Fiesta's, Vauxhall Cavalier, mini's, MG's all sorts really.

I don't know what it is really, I've always been more than pleased with my previous dubs and really had very few reliability problems along the way. Now my current Polo Tsi has never let me down, 'yet!' and it goes really well for a tiny 1.2, but it has had a few niggles that needed looking at.

A recall, technical bulletin thing for the turbo charger rattle. (a shim and a software update) Rattling fuel lines, two minor paint faults, most annoying is the premature timing chain stretch issue that comes with the early CBZB engines. That's annoyed me most as it's a "known-issue" so you would have thought they'd at be least checking them as a matter of course or better still recalling them and sorting it. Instead they are leaving it to the customer to pick up the bill. Apart from the engines that have actually died while within the warranty period. And it not isolated to the just Polo engines, VW appear to be generally pish with anything related to timing and timing chains.

I can't put my finger on it but I feel like instead of enjoying the car I'm just waiting for something expensive to break. 20 years ago I think I could have convinced anyone who wanted to buy a Vdub that they are worth the extra money, because of the build quality and dealer support. I just don't think that is the case anymore. Loads of manufacturers are now pushing out stuff of equal or better quality and the dealers basically just want to take your money and walk away.

One thing they do have going for them is the "Community" lots of DIY help on the web.

New Fiesta is supposed to be very good and I saw a new Nissan Micra in the flesh at the weekend and they are a good looking car inside and out.

RUM4MO
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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by RUM4MO » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:25 pm

I think that VW are just living on their previously well earned good reputation, but that is turning to poo from many angles. When I first bought my wife a VW Polo 1.4 16V 75PS back in September 2002, I thought that I was doing the correct thing as she had owned maybe 4 Fiesta final one being a "M" reg 1.6Si - the one with the Zetec engine and 90PS, it was a very handy car but eventually it ran out of life so was moved on in September 2002. At that time I had a 2000 VW Passat B5 4Motion saloon, I knew that car was good because it was just a cheaper version of the Audi A4 B5 2.8V6 30V quattro - after a few years and lost of wallet wrecking money hits, I worked out what I should have know already, ie that 9N Polo is just a VW coated Skoda Fabia, ie that Polo was bad because it was just a Skoda Fabia and lots of its main parts were CZ manufactured and mainly from inferior metal or metal treatment. I think that the move to clone a VW from a Skoda was a very bad move and most if not all the bad traits, including the duff early chain driven EA111 engines were basically designed and built by Skoda for VW Group down to a very low price - the chain disaster being an example of cost cutting forcing quality down. Most people stood their ground and forced VW Group to sort out these engines as VW Group knew that they had messed up but thought they were, or at least VW UK thought that they were big enough to ride out that storm and ignore the poor fools that bought their products - a lot of people "stuck it into them" and many more did that over the 1.4TSI Twin Charger mess and now the 2.0TFSI and possibly the emerging 1.8TFSI engine messes. They really have not bothered to try to learn from their mistakes - even going back to when they forced some of their parts suppliers to move away from developed Europe to lesser developed areas of the world - COP coils being another big mess up when forcing suppliers to save money.
I have an Audi made up from mainly Audi parts, so maybe it will be okay, though Audi will also be forcing suppliers into supplying crap stuff that we will initially have to pay to get replaced/sorted. Same going on at BMW and M-B, never believe that German branded means reliability, that is name that Germany earned possibly not correctly but through our ignorance. Small Fords, why not, Ford knows what their customers want and tries to keep them, in UK Vauxhall seem to be trying to destroy their good name by providing uninspiring cars, Vauxhall were at one time equal to or better than Rolls Royce - how times have change?
Last edited by RUM4MO on Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

wolfie
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Re: "Tick" from fuel pump???

Post by wolfie » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:23 pm

I too had a Fiesta, although it was in pre-injection CVH guise. Though I had one with a sunroof and initially had some shocking water ingress due to the drain pipes being incorrectly routed and basically emptying directly into the car. I now know why they call them "footwells" Following that I ran a Vauxhall Cavalier 2.0DCi which was probably one of the best cars I've owned. I guess as you get older and wiser and have the benefit of hindsight I wish I'd have spent a bit more time researching some of the cars I've owned.

I'm of the same opinion that VW are simply living on their past reputation. However that is quickly evaporating in the marketplace and things have moved on. I think while they have neglected their customers and penny-pinched the quality out of their vehicles other manufacturers have caught-up quality wise and are beating them at their own game.

Having done a bit more research subsequent to discovering the timing chain debacle, realized mine had actually as a 5dr been build In Uitenhage, South Africa. It's bit beyond me how they can build the engines in Mlada Boleslav (Czech Republic) before shipping vehicles them worldwide. But it's how globalization apparently works for the big companies like VW. I did actually consider the Audi A1 1.4Tsi, with twin-charger unit when I bought the Polo. Even then I thought they are going to be trouble at some point.


I'm not in a position to buy a new car this time round, but don't think VW would necessarily be my first or even second choice this time round. Problem is, with anything that is a new model it takes a few months or longer for them to appear. I think the "new model" anything is becoming a gamble.

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