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The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

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RUM4MO
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The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by RUM4MO » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:59 am

My wife has just pointed me towards an or another anti VW Group report in the Guardian newspaper motoring section (on line at least) - maybe not just anti VW Group, maybe just reporting what is or has happened!

Sounds a bit like it is still the issue with the variable inlet cam shaft timing pulley falling/coming apart!

In this instance a couple (of guys) from Durham, had it sounds like already handed their probably still in warranty 2015 Polo 1.2TSI into Lookers for a cam belt change at roughly 22K miles, now that sounds like that car was having some issues and it was handed into Lookers for investigation/repair and all they did was to replace the cam belt when maybe they should have looked further into what had been known in the past to be a potential failure item in earlier cars.

So, I'd think the plan here for others should be, if your engine starts to make noises from the RHS of the engine, either check the condition of the inlet variable timing pulley by removing the cam belt top cover, or get a dealer to consider that to be an issue - before VW try to extract £6.5K out of you to get the car back on the road!

I don't think the Guardian newspaper motoring reporter likes VW Group, which is fair enough if they are continuing to prove that they or their agents don't really care about what junk they sell.

Edit:- and seeing as my wife's August 2015 Polo 1.2TSI ran out of warranty at midnight last night, I should get that cover off again and check that pulley to make sure that it is not starting to come apart as its fasteners slacken off!

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by iichel » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:21 am

For the purpose of illustration, here is where the inlet camshaft pulley and its adjuster are located:

Image

And here is the control valve for the adjuster (number 1):

Image

RUM4MO
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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by RUM4MO » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:49 am

That will be helpful for some people, also, you can see the bolt that holds the top plastic cam belt cover on in the bottom picture!

Edit:- just slightly "up" and across to the left of "2".

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by veteran » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:31 pm

Yes, that's quite concerning, RUM4MO. For those of us who are, as yet, not fully acquainted with this issue, perhaps you can clarify one or two things about it?:

(a) This gradual loosening up of the camshaft pulley, is it known to affect all 6C's, ie. all 1.2's produced in the period 2014 - 2017 inclusive, or just some?

(b) In Iichel's first schematic, are those two mid-brown bits boltheads, or what exactly? Are those the bolts that come loose?

(c) Are VW aware of the problem, and have they come up with a solution for it, such as modified bolts?

(d) Are copies of that adjuster tool available to purchase on the open market, and do we know what torques are involved here?

(e) Would I be correct in saying that to completely remove the plastic camcover in order to do an inspection of the cambelt cogs requires, firstly, two rubber pipes on the outside to be pulled out of their plastic clips (and somehow held out of the way), and secondly, two metal clips to be removed from the front and back edges of the cover? Then the bolt that you've pointed out to be slackened off?

(f) Is this wholly an issue to do with a couple of fasteners (bolts?) on that righthand pulley in the schematic, or does leakage of some oil from somewhere in the cam area enter the fray as well?

(g) In the third schematic above, what is 2 and what is its significance? Is it actually an adjuster (the adjuster)?

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by RUM4MO » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:31 pm

I don’t know what “2” is, what has been reported is, in the very early production batch of these engines, there were reports of maybe oil leakage from that pulley due to some of its “holding it together” bolts slackening off, if owners did not check for oil leaking out then things got nasty and killed the engine. A few of these engines were caught in time, seemingly mainly in New Zealand for some reason followed by a few maybe on this forum in Polos. Going by pictures I have seen, initially quickly altered pulley was being fitted, but by the time my wife’s car’s engine was built they seemed to have developed a proper production line fix - well that is what I am hoping as the pulley fitted to her engine looks a lot different than the picture of the “first” fix pulley version, like I said, I really do need to check how things are inside that cover very soon.

I can’t remember needing to move too many bits out of the way to get that cover off.

I am hoping that this article is more accurately down to an owner not being looked after very well after that car started making noises, though there is a poster in the Fabia forum who has just had a belt change to get rid of noises, as yet I don’t know how many parts were replaced along with the cam belt. Either way I’d rather not be hearing about these sorts of issues with that engine as I had hoped that VW Group had identified that issue and fixed it!

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by RUM4MO » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:17 pm

Okay, “2” on the last picture is the securing screw/bolt for the timing actuator, which I think will just be a solenoid valve to allow pressurised engine oil through to move one part of that variable timing pulley.

To get that cover off, first unclip the two pipe clips, top one opens downwards so ease the latch up slightly then fold the clip out, the bottom one is the opposite way round. Then remove the cover securing bolt and then unclip the two retaining spring clips. After that the cover needs to get eased back and out from under these pipes and others.

The heads of the bolts holding that pulley assembly together unfortunately are at the rear side, so no chance to check/confirm that they are tight!

Everything looks okay yet on my wife’s car’s engine, pulley looks and feels tight and no signs of oil leaking out from it, so that is it checked for the next 12 months.

Edit:- as I would expect, the build date of that engine was in May 2015, but the low pressure petrol line is the version that was changed in production in early December 2014, so quality at the the Skoda engine plant is not what it should be, unless a concession was raised to allow them to basically do what they wanted?

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by veteran » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:57 pm

Thanks RUM4MO, that now puts me, and doubtless others, more in the picture about this. Annoying, though, that the bolts concerned are on a normally inaccessible side of the cam cog. Grrh!

In assessing your missus's Polo for cambelt tightness, did you go by some VW-published guideline (usually the amount that the belt can be deflected with finger pressure on its longest exposed portion) or did you rely merely on experience and 'personal feel'?

In your Edit, I'm a bit confused. What's 'that engine', for example? And why mention of a Skoda works? Was the very first discovery of this issue on a Skoda, and it was then also later found on Polos too, perhaps - or what, exactly?

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by iichel » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:10 pm

sorry veteran, the brown small circles, I assume, are part of the tool. the screw #2 is indeed a screw to hold the timing actuator in place.

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by RUM4MO » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:22 pm

Bother, lost my posting!

Anyway, maybe what I was referring to was that all these 1.2TSI engines are Skoda engines built only in a Skoda factory, and based on my past experience of “Skoda” based Polos, that is never a good thing for the customer.


I have now had a reply from the Fabia guy that needed to get the cam belt replaced at round about the 3 year mark due to noises from that area, the inlet cam shaft variable timing pulley was the cause of the noise and needed replacing as well, so that means that all of us with engines built since the original pulley design problem was discovered and sorted out by a change of design, can now maybe wait nervously in case we end up being unlucky and end up with a failed revised inlet cam shaft pulley.

Good old VW Group, get a design wrong then do very little to avoid it happening again on the redesigned part, they really don’t respect our money do they?

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by Ash6R » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:23 am

Does this effect the 4 cylinder 1.2tsi engine as well (CBZB engine code)?

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by iichel » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:13 am

No, it does not apply to the engines in the 6R, only to the 6C. These are two completely different engines

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by Paul B » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:17 pm

Hi all

I'm the owner of the car featured in the Guardian. It's a 6C Polo SE 1.2 TSI reg March 2015. Engine manufacture date November 2014 (according to guided fault finding read out). Main bits of car history:
March 2016, c 3,000 miles: Oil leak in engine. Replaced camshaft oil seal.
March 2018, c 18,000 miles: Oil leak in engine. Replaced crankshaft oil seal and timing belt as it was contaiminated with the oil.
July 2018, c 22,000 miles: Timing belt snaps, piston to valve contact, needs new engine, quoted price £6,649. Cam pulleys damaged but difficult to tell what happened first. Dealer blaming intake camshaft adjuster pulley as root cause.
Neither dealer (Lookers VW Scotswood Road Newcastle) nor VW offered to pay a penny or help in any way until the Guardian got involved, and the dealer only last week.

VW hasn't questioned pulley explanation (they've said they can only go on what the dealer tells them even though the dealer is in Newcastle and the car is in Dorset) until an anonymous post under the Guardian article today:

"I am an engineering director with VAG.
TSI is our name for turbo stratified injection and not as the article suggests.
Original cambelt tensioner pulleys were plastic, but this was not the case with the affected vehicle.
Only in the UK do we have the situation where dealers masquerade as manufacturers. "I've taken my car to VW" a customer will say, when the reality is they went to a dealer who paid for a franchise.
The timing belt is a critical engine component. Fitting it one tooth out can wreck the engine. Are we to be held liable if a dealer makes a mistake?
I understand that we have assisted the customer in this case."

Does this sound right? I'd seen the discussions about the service action across the UK and Europe (Service Action 15E7) and the recall in Australia and a post above suggests the manufacturing fix only began in December 2014.
https://uk-polos.net/viewtopic.php?t=67336
https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recall ... agen-polo
Lookers say the car wouldn't have gone for more than 10 miles if the timing belt had been wrongly fitted.

Although relieved at not having a bill of £6,648 we've still got to pay £830 and I'm really p****d off at the ridiculous lengths we've had to go to to get that far and being stuck in the middle of VW and the dealer blaming each other (or their other favourite explanation of 'just bad luck').

Any advice or further info on 15E7 would be much appreciated.

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by RUM4MO » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:11 pm

Yes, it would help if someone can provide the complete contain of that workshop action.

I would hope that there has been a part number change and that VW Group had made sure that their cheap and cheery engine builder in CZ under the Skoda banner was able to confirm affected engine number ranges as this is very serious, I'm glad that the Oz government see a failing engine as being a safety hazard.

Edit:- fortunately, maybe, the Edinburgh VW operation was dropped by Lookers, which might be handy for me!

Another Edit:- so, did that so called VW engine guy read the Guardian while he/she was over here on holiday, or has VWUK, who is fully owned by VW in Germany, given a press employee that role for a couple of hours just to write that article to response to that initial story - he/she is right though about the "S" being for Stratified and not Straight!

Final Edit:- for anyone owning a 6C Polo, I'd be having a look at the top cam belt cover and see what that car's engine manufacture date is - it is on a stuck on paper label, and if it is earlier than February 2015, you really should contact your dealer for them to be given the chance to check if your engine is affected and pay them for that investigation so that they must record that action on the worksheet - that way they will have taken some responsibility to "see you okay" if that pulley comes apart. This probably works best for anyone that is the original owner as that dealership sold you that car with that potential issue, so they are initially responsible and it is up to them if they can recover their costs from VWUK who is the sole importer of these cars into UK.
Last edited by RUM4MO on Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by veteran » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:13 pm

Have just checked the labelling on the cam timing cover of mine, it showing the date "04-05-17" - which I suppose is not surprising since the car is a 2017 model. Haven't opened the cover yet, though, to check the design of the 'pulley adjuster' to see whether it's the modified one. I'll do that in a day or two's time, when I've some other scheduled jobs to do, myself, on the car.

My hope is that by the end of 2015 this issue had become a known and recognised problem with VW worldwide, requiring recalls on all the affected models. I would expect a 2017 Polo such as mine, therefore, to have had a modified pulley adjuster fitted from the outset, ie. in the factory, thus eliminating my Polo from this potentially disasterous outcome.

I'd personally put this into the category of "serious design fault", and therefore in that context it seems completely unfair for VW UK to reject the suggestion that, in each case, they should renew the engine entirely at their (VW's) own expense. Okay, it's usually a 3-yr warranty and, with this issue, we're talking of some of the affected Polos now having gone through 4 years of ownership. But morally speaking, whether 3 or 4 years has gone by ought not to matter, as a serious design flaw such as this, one that BTW could possibly cause accidents and death, should be rectified by VW at zero cost to the owner. £800+ is still a huge amount of money for an owner to stump up, when the fault lies entirely with the manufacturer, VW.

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Re: The Guardian reporting Polo 1.2TSI Engine failures, oh no!

Post by Andy1273 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:00 pm

I've just checked my date 23/10/14 should I be concerned at all, what if any action should I take?

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