The mysteries of part numbers? CBZB Timing chains??

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wolfie
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The mysteries of part numbers? CBZB Timing chains??

Post by wolfie »

Just thinking about doing a few bits on the Polo, so a quick look at my oil filter to see what I have on the car at the moment before a buy one. 03C 115 561 H.
Checked on Etka and it is listing 03C 115 561 D ( I'm guessing mine is an OEM Mann filter, but not sure) Some of the filters for the 1.2Tsi have a second non-return valve so are the better choice.

I'm also thinking about getting the timing chain done so searching for part No's. Now searching through some of the Skoda forums with regards to the CBZB timing chain fix, some of the Russkies, are fitting the later type chain to the older block, however that necessitates changing the upper and lower sprockets. However they are simply not listed on Etka as a separate part so where might they be sourcing the part numbers???

You can even buy a complete kits from some Skoda parts suppliers.

https://www.skoda-parts.com/spare-part/ ... 25113.html

1109 - 1111 1111 - 0712
D >> - 06.11.2011 D - 07.11.2011>>

03F109158K 03F109158G (Wider chain)
03F109507B 03F109507D (tensioner)
03F109509C 03F109509F (Guide rear)
03F109469C 03F109469E (Guide front)
WHT004069 WHT004069
WHT004068 WHT004068
WHT004068 WHT004068

03F 103 101 03F 103 101 B(new block assy.)

I don't actually think the block has any changes. However the crank appears to have a wider sprocket fitted, hence the wider timing chain fitment)

(03F 109 571 F) (Upper sprocket)?????
(03F 105 209 G) (lower sprocket)?????

How are folk buying bits that are not listed? I'm just curious as I doubt I will be able to find anyone willing to fit parts that are not listed on Etka. Which is a shame as the new chain appears to be the best fix as it is not only stronger but fixes the start-up rattles for good.

(maybe I should start a 1.2 cbzb timing chain thread??)
Last edited by wolfie on Thu May 09, 2019 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
RUM4MO
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by RUM4MO »

Was it not someone from Italy that used some “wrong” parts - ie not the parts that VW Group listed, and either fitted them themselves or got a proper indie to fit them?

By not listed part numbers I’m guessing that you mean “not listed for that version of engine” ?

If I was running one of these engines I too would be trying to make it as “improved” as possible, once someone completes a list of parts needed and that work, then it would be very helpful for the next ones. This was already done for the 1.4 twincharger.
wolfie
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by wolfie »

By not listed, I mean when I look on Etka there is no number listed for my vehicle/engine/year.

As an example, for the crank-shaft assembly (that shows the lower sprocket) it simply says "no replacement part, see workshop manual" Likewise when you look at the Timing chain case assembly. It shows as "chain sprocket no replacement part" for both upper and lower sprocket.

http://www.oemepc.com/vw/part_single/ca ... 800/lang/e

https://volkswagen.7zap.com/en/rdw/polo ... 09-109057/

I have looked on Skoda & Audi Etka catalogs that refernce CBZB engines and none of them show part numbers. Yet the Skoda boys have apparently been able source them.

03F 109 571 F (Upper sprocket) 03F 105 209 G) (lower sprocket) The problem is, if you have nothing to check/reference them against. How can you be sure that they are the correct version or even part. With something as critical as a timing chain, getting it wrong has the potential to leave you with a scrapped engine and a huge repair bill.
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by RUM4MO »

I think that is what makes it essential that you cram yourself full of what some people have being fitting to get the best results, and that includes parts from other but closely related engine types.

I can see from reading a lot of these threads in seatcupra and briskoda, that a few people have taken making these engines as bulletproof as possible by fitting parts from other engines. Where you are finding “no replacement parts” are surely only due to some individual parts are now not compatible with what is fitted to these engines, or need to be replaced in conjunction with some other parts. An engine builder that knows these engines should be able to make things a bit clearer I’d expect.
wolfie
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by wolfie »

I've been keeping an eye open for any topics relating to the CBZB engine in general. While this is the only forum I pop in and out of I do lurk on one or two others. I'm a bit shame faced in that keeping an eye on the SEAT forums never occurred to me. Doh… Of course they are full of VAG parts so I might lean some information there. There are some really good threads scattered over the TinTerNet, but it's a little like a jig-saw with bits here and there that will hopefully build into a detailed "how's & Why's" eventually.

I suspect the CBZB is not a popular engine with the engine builders and it's potential for development appears pretty limited. Apart from the timing chain issues, early engines had problems with pistons breaking up. Other than the usual band of basic remaps other mods are relatively thin on the ground. The fact that the engine changed substantially in such a short time frame is a fair indication that it's far from the best engine in the world. I think the production run was only from early 2010 to 2012 ish, before they binned it and reverted to cam belt.

If I get time over the weekend I with scour the SEAT forums. (if you happen to have already seen anything, please point me at em :) )
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by Jay-Jay »

The CBZ* engine is still produced and sold, but in other countries (India).
The exemplars produced till the end of 2011 had some problems (first of all the timing chain which prematurely streched within few ten thousand of km; then the turbo's wastegate who required a shim of 2mm; etc.). But since 2012 it became a pretty reliable engine.
It has been formally replaced by the 1.2 TSI EA211 CJZ* engine, which has the timing belt and 16 valves, but it happened not for the technical problems I wrote before.
The new EA211 family engine replaced the old EA111 generation (included the 1.2 TSI 8v) just for a matter of marketing and emissions. Plus to that, EA211 engines have been developed with the MQB platform: infact, they did their debut with the Golf 7 and then they have been put on the Polo and her sisters (Fabia and Ibiza) as soon as they had a restyling/facelift (still a marketing matter).

I remember that there has been a period in which, while some VAG models had the new EA211 engines, some others still had the old EA111 ones (one of them is the Skoda Yeti), included the 1.2 TSI EA111 CBZ* engine.

Last year VW realeased a special model in Indonesia, the Polo VRS, which has the 1.2TSI CBZ* engine already tuned to 140hp from factory.
wolfie
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by wolfie »

Thanks for info. :)
I did not realise that the engine was still in production elsewhere. I'll be honest, I did not look outside the UK.

Mine had the turbo wastegate shim update quite early on, think it got done at the first service. I had not noticed any problems, but they did it anyway.

If I can get my timing chain updated I would consider a modest remap. The engine does well for a 1.2 anyway (mine is the 105ps/77Kw) it would be nice to have a little more if it did not effect reliability. There appear to be a fair number of remaps available, most stage 1, remaps are around the 140bhp mark. The increase in torque would be welcome.

I noticed in your profile you list "Chain kit 'B'. I take it you have had yours updated? Did you have the upper and lower sprockets replaced? Yours is an early car.
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Jay-Jay
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by Jay-Jay »

Yes, I've been the first one in Europe (world?) to update my 2010 engine to the latest chain's components design on the Polo 6R.
I posted a guide with photos on many forums and helped tons of users to do the same work on their cars with this same engine.
I also posted some videos on YouTube.

Last year I remapped and did some others modifications to the intake and the exhaust. I would never come back. The actual torque curve makes the car addicting to drive. :)


wolfie
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by wolfie »

I am such an idiot!!!!

I have read some of your posts over and over without realising it was you!!!

https://www.polovw.it/foro/viewtopic.php?t=28554

https://www.polovw.it/foro/viewtopic.ph ... start=1644

You do great work. If you don't mind, I may ask you a few questions over the coming weeks.

Are you Jay-Jay on YouTube?

Have you posted your content on this forum and I've overlooked it?
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Jay-Jay
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by Jay-Jay »

Ahahah, no problem! :) Yes, that's me!

I never posted the guide on this forum, because I noticed there are not so many 1.2 TSI 8v owners in the UK. Maybe in the next week, as soon as I'll have some free time, I could do it.

Whenever you want you can write me via PM. But I generally prefer if you'd open a new thread, so also other users can read and interact. :)
wolfie
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by wolfie »

OK, Thanks.

I've just copied the content from the polovw.it forum and if I have enough time over the weekend I'll turn it into a word.doc (just so I can read & print it out more easily.) How many miles/km have you done since the chain swap.

Do yo happen to know why you are not supposed to be able to use the type 'B' chain kit with older block? I assumed it was simply because the older block had the smaller, old design bottom sprocket??
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by RUM4MO »

Ah Ha, I had read these postings, and any other time/forums/threads I have said that someone living in Italy had probably done the most in terms of updating these engines, but I missed these comments out on this forum/thread reply - so, now you know who has all of the facts/part numbers - excellent!

I have found, well at least when my wife had a 2002 9N Polo, that this forum did not have much in the way of members giving technical help/support for that model, and its easy to work out why, your typical VW Polo does not get as involved with sorting out technical issues with their car as a Skoda Fabia or SEAT Ibiza, its just the way things are - the older 6N Polo probably does have a good technical member following though.

Engines, all these 1.2TSI engines are built in two engine factories, both are Skoda factories, so any extended use of the EA111 in some markets will still be engines built by Skoda I'd reckon - that was just added in case you thought that you need to look elsewhere for parts etc, quite a few of these online VW Group parts listings also include non European market models, so maybe some parts will only show up when you input one of these other markets if given the option.

Edit:- typically you can get your local VW dealer's parts department to order up these "other" parts if you provide them with the part number.
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Jay-Jay
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by Jay-Jay »


wolfie wrote:OK, Thanks.

I've just copied the content from the polovw.it forum and if I have enough time over the weekend I'll turn it into a word.doc (just so I can read & print it out more easily.) How many miles/km have you done since the chain swap.

Do yo happen to know why you are not supposed to be able to use the type 'B' chain kit with older block? I assumed it was simply because the older block had the smaller, old design bottom sprocket??
At the moment I've driven about 30.000km with the latest chain ("J" type) and everything is ok.
With the "G" type chain I drove about 40-45.000km without any issue. Then I discovered Skoda released a new chain ("J" type) and I replaced it again by myself.

In Skoda they install the "B" chain kit on 2009-2010-2011 engines.
And I still don't know why in VW, Audi and Seat they still keep installing the "A" chain kit, which is known for being less durable.
All I can think of is that it's a matter of money...
Producing a "B" chain kit is more expensive, so they are installing it only on Skoda cars, which happen to be much less than VW, Audi and Seat cars.
If we consider also that the "A" chain kit can last about 70/80.000km without any problem (even if it produces the rattle at startup) and that 1.2TSI owners usualy drive all those km in many years (my mum just reached 75.000km in 8 years with her A1 1.2TFSI 86hp), the number of people who could get mad about this situation becomes little compared to the general number of VW/Audi/Skoda/Seat cars owners.
And most probably many of those 1.2TSI owners will sell the car much before facing again the problem of chain replacement, so they'll never know there has been a problem on the timing chain.

Plus to all of this, installing the "B" kit is a very similar process to installing the "A" kit. The only main difference is that you need to replace the crankshaft sprocket, which requires specific tools for extracting the old sprocket and pressing the new one.
This could require more time in the workshop, so more costs to add to the rest. I guess this could be another reason.
wolfie
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by wolfie »

I actually bought an updated chain cover (03F 109 210 D) after reading your post on polovw.it. It was a happy coincidence really, I was browsing Ebay for chain kits/part and came across a SEAT garage closure-clearance so bought a genuine new chain case for £25. They are typically around £85 from a dealer.

My thinking was if I spend money on the car I will have to do it at some point!!! :D

Where did you source your parts? Are they genuine dealer parts or did you simply buy an OEM kit?

A few months ago I rang VW parts department to be told "There was no kit, but they could sell be all the parts I needed" But they wouldn't actually tell me any of the part numbers. I may well be better off giving Skoda a ring.

I am one of those TSi drivers who only do tiny miles. Mine is 8 years old and has only done 31,000 miles, (50,000Km) If I had done more, I think I would have done the chain a few years back.
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Jay-Jay
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Re: The mysteries of part numbers?

Post by Jay-Jay »

I found all the part numbers on ETKA and ordered them all directly from VW in Rome.

If you go to VW and give them your VIN number, they will never order the right pieces for you and keep saying the "B" kit is not compatible with your car.
You need to go there with all the part numbers and place the order without specifing the VIN number of your car. Just say that you want to order those parts. Simple as that!
You can find all the part numbers you need on the thread I wrote on polovw.it.
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