Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

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Johntheo1
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by Johntheo1 »

Car is January 2019 not Jan 2018
latest readings after all short runs.
Charging voltage is now 15.0V under all conditions but battery only charges at 4.5/5.0A which shows that its not much use just driving a car for 30 mins or so to recharge your battery.

Address 19: CAN Gateway (2Q0 909 901 )

10:03:08
IDE01834 Battery voltage 12.115 V
IDE01836 Battery current -4.724 A
IDE01837 Temperature of battery sensor 7 °C
IDE01838 Battery temperature 9 °C
IDE01839 Battery charge level 75 %
IDE01841 Battery internal resistance 7.0 mOhm
IDE01842 Usable battery charge 25 Ah
IDE01843 Battery voltage at rest 12.5 V
IDE01948 Battery internal resistance not normed 5.6 mOhm
IDE03256-MAS06105 Battery adaptation-Rated battery capacity 59 Ah
IDE07616 Battery degradation for start/stop mode Phase 1
IDE07681-MAS06086 Battery total charging throughput-Total re-charge 1273.5 Ah
RUM4MO
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by RUM4MO »

My wife has a 2015 6C Polo 1.2TSI 110PS, and for maybe the past 18 months, I've been keeping an eye on the voltage at the 12V DC via a cheap plug in 12V DVM, until a week ago, it was typically lightly charging the battery when under power and idle, so 12.2V > 12.7V and on the overrun 14.2V > 14.6V.

That all suddenly changed just over 2 weeks ago, and it started charging constantly at 14.7V > 14.9V under power and idle, and also on the overrun. After checking stats on CAN Gateway and not coming to any conclusions, I even tried charging the battery up "fully" using a CTEK smart charger, still no change even after initial starting with that charged battery, so I tried something different, I changed the reg'd serial number of the battery. For the initial 15 minutes of driving after doing that not much changed, then by the time we got to where we were going maybe 5 minutes later, the charging level seemed to have improved back towards what I was expecting though now it seemed to if anything allow the battery to get a lot lower in charge before recharging it, so under power and idle 11.9V > 12.3V and when on the overrun 14.5V > 14.7V.

So, I am thinking that the battery has got to the point in its life where it is still "okay", using a CTEK battery tester yields a "BATTERY GOOD" pass and still very high theoretical CCA, though the car's systems suggest a current capacity drop down from an initial 59Ah down to 34Ah, but the smart charging system has reckoned that it has gone out of the normal expected window of operation - this car very quickly still enables auto Stop/Start and never hands out any limitations of use warnings concerning consumer usage.

I've got a hunch that perhaps this is what is forcing some "not so good batteries" ie in particular Moll it seems from other marques, to meet an early death.

The charging voltages have been over the past week since I changed the battery serial number, been creeping back up towards being a constant 14.7V > 14.9V.

So, a new Bosch AGM battery of the next size up, has been bought, and will get fitted soon, after that I will keep on monitoring the charging voltage and if necessary replace the battery monitor unit which is the dongle that is part of the main -VE lead.

These battery monitor units, it seems, have been failing frequently across the VW Group marques and models, so I have yet to discover if it is the battery monitor that fails first, then overcharging starts to damage the EFB, time will tell.

Only people that have been keeping an eye on the charging voltage via the cabin 12V DC socket will ever notice this as outwardly as far as using the car is concerned, everything is as it should be.

Edit:- one thing that I did not check, and wish I had was, the "energy throughput" mainly because I had looked that far down the list in the CAN Gateway, it has been said that the battery management system logs that and when the logged value is maybe 50 times the batteries design Ah capacity, or some other figure maybe 500 times, it is time to replace the battery. Which leads me to consider that if placing a battery on "maintenance charging" and connecting it across the +VE battery pole and the body earth is the best way to do things, though the CAN Gateway controller should be asleep while external charging is taking place and so not "see" this extra charging and including it in the total energy throughput sum.
Johntheo1
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by Johntheo1 »

RUM4MO wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:40 pm My wife has a 2015 6C Polo 1.2TSI 110PS, and for maybe the past 18 months, I've been keeping an eye on the voltage at the 12V DC via a cheap plug in 12V DVM, until a week ago, it was typically lightly charging the battery when under power and idle, so 12.2V > 12.7V and on the overrun 14.2V > 14.6V.

That all suddenly changed just over 2 weeks ago, and it started charging constantly at 14.7V > 14.9V under power and idle, and also on the overrun. After checking stats on CAN Gateway and not coming to any conclusions, I even tried charging the battery up "fully" using a CTEK smart charger, still no change even after initial starting with that charged battery, so I tried something different, I changed the reg'd serial number of the battery. For the initial 15 minutes of driving after doing that not much changed, then by the time we got to where we were going maybe 5 minutes later, the charging level seemed to have improved back towards what I was expecting though now it seemed to if anything allow the battery to get a lot lower in charge before recharging it, so under power and idle 11.9V > 12.3V and when on the overrun 14.5V > 14.7V.

So, I am thinking that the battery has got to the point in its life where it is still "okay", using a CTEK battery tester yields a "BATTERY GOOD" pass and still very high theoretical CCA, though the car's systems suggest a current capacity drop down from an initial 59Ah down to 34Ah, but the smart charging system has reckoned that it has gone out of the normal expected window of operation - this car very quickly still enables auto Stop/Start and never hands out any limitations of use warnings concerning consumer usage.

I've got a hunch that perhaps this is what is forcing some "not so good batteries" ie in particular Moll it seems from other marques, to meet an early death.

The charging voltages have been over the past week since I changed the battery serial number, been creeping back up towards being a constant 14.7V > 14.9V.

So, a new Bosch AGM battery of the next size up, has been bought, and will get fitted soon, after that I will keep on monitoring the charging voltage and if necessary replace the battery monitor unit which is the dongle that is part of the main -VE lead.

These battery monitor units, it seems, have been failing frequently across the VW Group marques and models, so I have yet to discover if it is the battery monitor that fails first, then overcharging starts to damage the EFB, time will tell.

Only people that have been keeping an eye on the charging voltage via the cabin 12V DC socket will ever notice this as outwardly as far as using the car is concerned, everything is as it should be.

Edit:- one thing that I did not check, and wish I had was, the "energy throughput" mainly because I had looked that far down the list in the CAN Gateway, it has been said that the battery management system logs that and when the logged value is maybe 50 times the batteries design Ah capacity, or some other figure maybe 500 times, it is time to replace the battery. Which leads me to consider that if placing a battery on "maintenance charging" and connecting it across the +VE battery pole and the body earth is the best way to do things, though the CAN Gateway controller should be asleep while external charging is taking place and so not "see" this extra charging and including it in the total energy throughput sum.
I'm including two logs from today with 1.5 hrs urban trip between the two.
A few interesting items, the usable AH has apparently increased from 25AH to 35AH,10AH, the charge level from 75% to 85% which might be 59*10% or 5.9AH, one way or the other it is probably around 8AH which sounds reasonable as it was charging initially (alternator) at ~ 5A, so 5*1.5 is 7.5/8 AH, all adds up BUT
The total rec-harge has increased from 1273.5AH to 1386.4AH, a increase of 112.9AH = a charging rate of 75A????? so something certainly not adding up here?. Maybe decimal point in wrong place 11.3AH would sound correct.

However the alternator was only charging (see "engine Idling" log) at 13.499V/1.602A which sounds about right for a 85% SOC. and no overcharging I would think.

Can you post a log with similar details as mine, sometime?.

Also the battery voltage at rest correlates fairly closely to a little table I've used for years.

Volts Capacity % volts/cell
11.51 10 1.918
11.66 20 1.943
11.81 30 1.968
11.96 40 1.993
12.10 50 2.017
12.24 60 2.040
12.37 70 2.062
12.50 80 2.083
12.62 90 2.103
12.73 100 2.122

10:03:04
Engine OFF
IDE01834 Battery voltage 12.115 V
IDE01836 Battery current -4.716 A
IDE01837 Temperature of battery sensor 7 °C
IDE01838 Battery temperature 9 °C
IDE01839 Battery charge level 75 %
IDE01841 Battery internal resistance 7.0 mOhm
IDE01842 Usable battery charge 25 Ah
IDE01843 Battery voltage at rest 12.5 V
IDE01948 Battery internal resistance not normed 5.6 mOhm
IDE03256-MAS06105 Battery adaptation-Rated battery capacity 59 Ah
IDE07616 Battery degradation for start/stop mode Phase 1
IDE07681-MAS06086 Battery total charging throughput-Total re-charge 1273.5 Ah

19:36:44
Engine Idling
IDE00019 Voltage terminal 30 13.5 V
IDE01834 Battery voltage 13.499 V
IDE01836 Battery current 1.602 A
IDE01839 Battery charge level 85 %
IDE01841 Battery internal resistance 6.6 mOhm
IDE01842 Usable battery charge 35 Ah
IDE01843 Battery voltage at rest 12.6 V
IDE07681-MAS06087 Battery total charging throughput-Entire energy throughput 1386.4 Ah
RUM4MO
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by RUM4MO »

Okay, I'll do that later in the week as we are going away today and using my car.

One thing that slightly confuses me is the real world meaning of some of the descriptions, like usable battery charge %, in much earlier versions of VW Group battery management systems, it was worded more like being the effective theoretical present total capacity that battery could now be rated at, and so give a clear indication of battery effective capacity degradation.

I noticed that you have slightly fallen into the very easy trap of logging slightly different groups of data on different logs, I'll try to take a note of where/what I want to log and stick with that. After checking that car the first time, I was a bit annoyed to find that I had not collected the same data on each of the 3 logs I ran!

I note from one of your earlier postings that as usual VW used the default "JCB" and "111111111" for the battery vendor and serial number fields data, other VW Group marques, even post BEM era do populate these fields with real/true data.
Johntheo1
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by Johntheo1 »

I can log the same (12) parameters as you do once the log is posted.

It will be interesting to see if the "Battery total charging throughput" on yours has reset now that you have recoded the battery. IMO, the main tool the battery monitor uses is the "battery voltage at rest" which theoretically is the battery terminal voltage with battery disconnected from all loads and the charging voltage is probably largely based on this calculation + the internal resistance of the battery. I'd be a bit surprised if historical data has much to do with the calculation.
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by Johntheo1 »

Re Total Charging, there are two, one looks as if it is just what the total charge AH is and the other the total of the charge AH + the total of the Battery draw off AH. The main and really only draw off will be during starting which only takes ~ 0.25AH/start, at practically all other times the Alternator will supply all/any electrical loads + trickle charge the battery.
I think VW say that the life of a battery is roughly 50*battery capacity (AH), in my case 50*59, 2950AH so ~ 2950/1388*2.83(years)= 6 years. and my battery remaining capacity should be (2959-1388)/2959*100, 53% or 31.3AH. The actual battery life will depend on the DOD (debth of discharge) before recharge which in a car used daily will be very little so perhaps VWs (mine) normal +10 year battery life is still attainable?.

IDE07681-MAS06086 Battery total charging throughput-Total re-charge 1279.0 Ah
IDE07681-MAS06087 Battery total charging throughput-Entire energy throughput 1388.2 Ah
RUM4MO
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by RUM4MO »

Here are a couple of logs taken today just after a 15 mile journey, first one engine off, second one engine at idle.
As you can see this 2015 6C Polo 1.2TSI is aiming at getting the battery up to 100% and not the roughly 80% that was the charging system target, though the charging does eventually back off when full charging has been achieved, after the charging has started to back off, it will as intended try to dump more charge into the battery on the overrun. Remember this original battery had its serial number changed on the 16th of October 2021 so that explains the low entire energy throughput etc
.
14:14:13 engine off
IDE01834 Battery voltage 12.646 V
IDE01836 Battery current -5.499 A
IDE01837 Temperature of battery sensor 27 °C
IDE01838 Battery temperature 18 °C
IDE01839 Battery charge level 92 %
IDE01841 Battery internal resistance 5.6 mOhm
IDE01842 Usable battery charge 58 Ah
IDE01843 Battery voltage at rest 12.7 V
IDE01848 Energy balance of last driving cycle 0.0 Ah
IDE07616 Battery degradation for start/stop mode Phase 1
IDE07681-MAS06086 Battery total charging throughput-Total re-charge 63.0 Ah
IDE07681-MAS06087 Battery total charging throughput-Entire energy throughput 61.3 Ah



14:16:46 engine at idle
IDE01834 Battery voltage 13.034 V
IDE01836 Battery current 1.019 A
IDE01837 Temperature of battery sensor 28 °C
IDE01838 Battery temperature 18 °C
IDE01839 Battery charge level 91 %
IDE01841 Battery internal resistance 5.6 mOhm
IDE01842 Usable battery charge 58 Ah
IDE01843 Battery voltage at rest 12.7 V
IDE01848 Energy balance of last driving cycle 0.1 Ah
IDE07616 Battery degradation for start/stop mode Phase 1
IDE07681-MAS06086 Battery total charging throughput-Total re-charge 63.1 Ah
IDE07681-MAS06087 Battery total charging throughput-Entire energy throughput 61.4 Ah
Johntheo1
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by Johntheo1 »

My battery after 2.8 years is still showing 12.6V voltage at rest which is ~ 90% charged so I wouldn't have any worries about it just yet. I would think the battery degradation calc though is probably not 100% off the mark, the real test as far as I am concerned is to see how low the voltage falls with a cold start in the morning, the internal resistance is showing 5.6mohms so if one assumes a 300A crank then the voltage drop is around 300*5.6/1000, 1.7V theoretically so must watch that someday with my M.meter on the battery terminals.

Don't understand what the meaning of these two readings are??

IDE07681-MAS06086 Battery total charging throughput-Total re-charge 1279.0 Ah
IDE07681-MAS06087 Battery total charging throughput-Entire energy throughput 1388.2 Ah

Are you going to replace that battery shortly or what, it would be nice to see how resetting it will affect it, very little IMO, the main thing I noticed is that when mine is "fully charged" is that it doesn't charge at 15V on the overrun, more like 13.5 or so.
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by RUM4MO »

I don't understand these two either.

I have bought a new, but AGM one capacity size up Bosch battery and a new battery monitor as it seems that lots of battery failures in these VW Group cars, and maybe other marques, tend to go from unnoticed battery monitor "changes" ie not spotted by the battery management system as a failure, to battery failures - most of which are resolved for the mean time by a battery replacement, but possibly lead in the slightly longer term to another failed battery - buying or fixing via dealership roughly makes the battery monitor 1/4>1/5 of the cost of a new battery, buying a battery online or from Costco drops that down to a battery monitor being just over 1/2 the price of a new Bosch AGM battery.

So for me, ideally I'll replace the battery first and before the weather makes working in the garage too nasty - if I don't see a change in the charging voltage profile within a a few days and it staying that way for over a month, I'll be fitting that new battery monitor - and if that does not bring things back to where I expect, from my past observations of charging voltage, then I'll just have to live with it.

To be quite honest, if I had not been keeping an eye on this situation I would not have been aware of the sudden change in charging voltage levels and so profile, but I have and I know that "all is not well" - I'd be very surprised if most workshops would report that there is an issue other than the battery is now being charged to a much higher level than intended, as to how long it will take to age that battery, I don't know, the car thinks that the internal resistance is still very low, ie "good" and the CTEK battery tester agrees with that in terms of overall battery condition - what it uses to work that out and it claims the CCA is near enough the rated level when new, okay any new unused batteries I've tested with it return a higher than described on the case CCA level, but maybe that is okay for a new battery.

Edit:- on that car, when the battery is fully charged, the overrun charging is 14.7V it has never dropped back down to close to 13.6V etc now that "something" has changed.
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by Johntheo1 »

Any estimate how long the engine was actually running to give that total charge of ~ 63AH.

My polo has 13503 kms since new, nearly all short trips so using average speed of 30kph gives a total run time of 450 hrs and a average charge of 1300/450, say 2.9A which very roughly is probably not far off the mark as practically no stop/start during this time. stop/start enabled would make a huge difference as even in daylight the running lights are on and as you can see are sapping 5/6A with engine stopped, at night, with main lights on then the drawdown is probably at least 10A or more, its a bit surprising that the head/dipped beams don't switch off when the engine stops but probably some safety implications there if you are out in the countryside. Also high cabin fan speed settings can produce very substantial draw downs as well.
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by RUM4MO »

The mileage between when I changed the battery serial number on 16th October was 211 miles, at a guessed average speed of 35MPH which gives a total running time of 6.03 hours and probably used 9 times with a total of 30 engine starts. Auto Stop/Start would be enabled only when stopped at "long time" traffic lights, today's posting was from readings taken today 3rd November.
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by Johntheo1 »

RUM4MO wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:25 pm The mileage between when I changed the battery serial number on 16th October was 211 miles, at a guessed average speed of 35MPH which gives a total running time of 6.03 hours and probably used 9 times with a total of 30 engine starts. Auto Stop/Start would be enabled only when stopped at "long time" traffic lights, today's posting was from readings taken today 3rd November.
30 starts at say 0.25AH/start = 7.5AH maybe allow another 7.5AH usage for long time stop (=> 1 hour so 5 hrs running time remaining) average charging over 5 hour period (63-15)/5, say 9.6/10 A, seems quite high if one allows normal trickle charge of 2A for 6 hrs then remaining (63-15-12), = 36AH which theoretically could only be absorbed by the battery if its SOC was~ 39%??.
Monitor it now that its fully charged over say a 1 hour drive.
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by RUM4MO »

Here is another log taken today after a total journey distance of 21 miles and 1:14 hours since that log posted on this thread yesterday.

Mileage: 36416 Repair Order: BATT CHRG engine off
- Taken after a total journey distance of 21 miles and duration 1:14hours with 2 stops of 20 minutes and Auto Stop/Start enabled at 8 sets of traffic lights, disabled at 6 other sets of traffic lights

Address 19: CAN Gateway (6C0 909 901 )

12:13:38
IDE01834 Battery voltage 12.439 V
IDE01836 Battery current -5.558 A
IDE01837 Temperature of battery sensor 26 °C
IDE01838 Battery temperature 12 °C
IDE01839 Battery charge level 89 %
IDE01841 Battery internal resistance 5.6 mOhm
IDE01842 Usable battery charge 54 Ah
IDE01843 Battery voltage at rest 12.6 V
IDE01848 Energy balance of last driving cycle 0.0 Ah
IDE01849 Previous journey duration 0.0 H
IDE07681-MAS06086 Battery total charging throughput-Total re-charge 66.9 Ah
IDE07681-MAS06087 Battery total charging throughput-Entire energy throughput 65.8 Ah
Johntheo1
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by Johntheo1 »

RUM4MO wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:40 pm Here is another log taken today after a total journey distance of 21 miles and 1:14 hours since that log posted on this thread yesterday.

Mileage: 36416 Repair Order: BATT CHRG engine off
- Taken after a total journey distance of 21 miles and duration 1:14hours with 2 stops of 20 minutes and Auto Stop/Start enabled at 8 sets of traffic lights, disabled at 6 other sets of traffic lights

Address 19: CAN Gateway (6C0 909 901 )

12:13:38
IDE01834 Battery voltage 12.439 V
IDE01836 Battery current -5.558 A
IDE01837 Temperature of battery sensor 26 °C
IDE01838 Battery temperature 12 °C
IDE01839 Battery charge level 89 %
IDE01841 Battery internal resistance 5.6 mOhm
IDE01842 Usable battery charge 54 Ah
IDE01843 Battery voltage at rest 12.6 V
IDE01848 Energy balance of last driving cycle 0.0 Ah
IDE01849 Previous journey duration 0.0 H
IDE07681-MAS06086 Battery total charging throughput-Total re-charge 66.9 Ah
IDE07681-MAS06087 Battery total charging throughput-Entire energy throughput 65.8 Ah
IDE01849 does not give the journey duration in either of our logs.

Looking at your readings I would say the battery is being kept fully charged and not overcharged due to resetting. I don't think resetting will have had any bad effect, the only difference I see (in mine) is that the usable battery charge is based on the (actual battery charge level) X the remaining theoretical remaining throughput, which may or may not prove to be a accurate forecast, time will tell.

If you take mine as a example, battery charge level=78%, remaining cycle time % =1670/2590=57% so "usable battery charge" = 59*0.78*0.57, 26.23AH.
log shows 27AH.

4/11/2021
18:56:19 13,512Kms
IDE01834 Battery voltage 12.116 V
IDE01836 Battery current -4.761 A
IDE01837 Temperature of battery sensor 8 °C
IDE01838 Battery temperature 7 °C
IDE01839 Battery charge level 78 %
IDE01841 Battery internal resistance 6.8 mOhm
IDE01842 Usable battery charge 27 Ah
IDE01843 Battery voltage at rest 12.5 V
IDE01848 Energy balance of last driving cycle 0.0 Ah
IDE01849 Previous journey duration 0.0 H
IDE07681-MAS06086 Battery total charging throughput-Total re-charge 1280.2 Ah
IDE07681-MAS06087 Battery total charging throughput-Entire energy throughput 1390.7 Ah
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Re: Is the 12v battery covered under VWs 3 year warranty?

Post by silverhairs »

Looking at all your posts, and all the facts and figures. I've been driving for 64 years and always kept an eye on the fluid level of the batteries where needed, but I've never worried about the output or the condition of the battery, as long as the car started, everything was OK. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
In all my years I've had just 2 battery faults, once with a 3Ltr Ford Granada, been away for the weekend come to start it on the Monday and nothing, jump started it with another battery, took it down to a battery specialist, the shorted it out and one cell started to smoke, another time with my Nissan Note, started first thing, went shopping, got back in the car, nothing. Called out recovery, they jump started it, tested the battery, DEAD !! New battery.
Am I worried about the battery in the Polo, certainly not.

Getting back to the question about VW 3 year warranty, my mate with a VW, they said "the battery isn't covered, it's a one year warranty", he had to pay.
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