Steering judder anyone?

polo2k · Post by **polo2k** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:10 pm

ok i wont comment on the quality bit but as ar as the wheel balencing goes: what wheels have you got (alloy or steel ) and how were the weights arranged/ attached (on the very edge of the rim on both sides or internally glued in one line or 2)

dxg · Post by **dxg** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:19 pm

I have the melbournes - the weights are glued to the inside of the rim (i.e. not visible unless you look for them behind the spokes)

I did noticed there were rather a lot of them!

polo2k · Post by **polo2k** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:12 pm

dxg wrote:I have the melbournes - the weights are glued to the inside of the rim (i.e. not visible unless you look for them behind the spokes)

I did noticed there were rather a lot of them!

ok then this could be the problem as i shall explain (oh no

)
if you imagine that there are a number of possiblew positions for the wieights on the wheel that i shall refer to as lines (the rim edge is one line the flat just inside another the flat behind the spokes etc) then the best balencing that can be done is to use the 2 lines furthest from eachother i.e. the 2 edges. however for reasons of good looks and wheel damage mist garages tend to ballance "cared for" alloys using one line on the inside back very close to the edge and one behind the spokes, this is about the best that can be done while keeping the weights stealthy but on most balencing machines there is an option to just glue them to the flat near the edge so that big brakes can be cleared (i.e. big tuned bmw`s have about 3mm clearence inbetween the caliper and the inside of the stock rims) so a lot of tyre fitters use this setting as it is the fastest and easiest but unfortunatly tends not to balence very well if there is any weight diference between the 2 sides of the tire. so really what you want is 2 lines f weights glued to the inside of the rim, one just behind the spokes and one next to the back edge.
now you mentioned that there were a lot of weights in the wheel. there should be no more than 60 grams total per wheel, if there is ask why and if they say "well the balencing achine said so" then demand that they rotate the tyre around the rim some and try again. if you see weights opposite each other on the same line then get it redone as this is redundent weight added to cancel each other out (i.e. 20 gram at 12o clock and 10 at 6 o clock weans that only 10 is required at 12 o clock. also there should be one clump of weights per line on a straight wheel so if there are weights at 12 o clock and 3 then get it redone and ask to see the wheel on the machine to see if the wheels are bent of have flats in them

i think ill stop there cos im prolly getting boring but ive oly scratched the surface

dxg · Post by **dxg** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:27 pm

No, you're not getting boring, I'm learning new stuff here!!

The concept of there being more than one "line" as you describe had simply not occured to me before. I'd always thought of balancing as being in the direction of the wheel diameter - it just never occured to me that it also has to take into account imperfections btwn the front face and the rear face of the wheel - i think that's what you're saying when you mention a need for more than one line. I don't recall seeing any weights on the rear face before, but then I wasn't looking there, as I didn't know what I now know, you know!!

Woah, learnt something completely new!! I will have a good look at what they've done to it and will check for unnecessary weights. I don't know if I'll be able to argue the case for re-doing it if I find this as you describe, but I least I will be able to sound as if I know what I'm talking about, now!

Thanks for the insights!! I had a suspicion from your other posts that you know your stuff!

Do you do this for a living?

Deek.

polo2k · Post by **polo2k** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:43 pm

i beleve the technical term is unqualified cos i dont hve a bit of paper that says what i know (which includes all forms if vehicle maintenance, (incl servicing,brakes,tyres,etc) body work, paint, straightening after accidents and the like, auto electricks, ICE, restoration, btw when i say vehicle i mean car, lorry, bus,coach, some plant machenery, motorbikes)
at the moment im only a fitter at the equivilent of charlie brown (but in france) which means that today for example ive fitted and balenced about 20 tyres (alloys and steelies) repared about 3 punctures, done 2 services , replaces 1 full set of glowplugs, done rear discs and pads on a car and today was quiet i also do suspension work in fact some of the only things i dont fully understand/ have never done are alignment and auto gearboxes but i have a passive understanding of each

ps on topic the normal time that im given per wheel (remove from car, remove old tyre, change valve, fit new tyre, inflate, check for damage etc, balance(and with me its to a 0 gram tollerance cos most fitters say 5 grams is ok) and refit to car, is 15 min but in reality my best time to do 4 tyres, which were on 16 inch alloys requireing gled weights and a lot of care cos the customer was already waithing and i was doing it for someone who had run late on another car, is 12 minutes but thats really pushing it and if youve got nice wheels dont push him to go faster cos one slip with a tyre machine can mean a dead wheel in some cases, a scratch in others or just neadng to come back to get them redone.

dxg · Post by **dxg** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:48 pm

Impressive.

More productive than spending your days talking to people about "value", certainly!!

Post by **mole** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:11 am

Nice one 2k, certainly understand more about it now, I had the same thought as dxg.

polo2k · Post by **polo2k** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:23 pm

lol im just big headded lol

i might do a fyi on wheel balencing post which may be long which forum do you think would be most appropriate (oh and maybe one on tyre fitting too)

des_pd_ tdi · Post by **des_pd_ tdi** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:51 pm

Looks like we need to create a seperate forum just for Polo2k

Post all you can, my car is all out of allignment I litterally have to force it to drive in a straight line, it keeps on wandering to the left.

tdisport · Post by **tdisport** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:35 pm

i have to exact same prob. its pulls to left alll the time.
have a word in dealer and they said it 'cos of low profile tyres that follow tracks on road.
Dont believe that though.

des_pd_ tdi · Post by **des_pd_ tdi** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:51 pm

Yeah that's a load of bull. Never did that when the car was new so why should it do it now. Typical dealership comment.

polo2k · Post by **polo2k** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 7:07 pm

actually it could be true as the lower profile the tyre is the less tolerence ther is for imperfections in the road so if there is a groove im the road it might try and follow it i noticed it a lot when i fitted my 15`s and then again when i fitted my front upper strut brace, the reason for theese mods causing it is that when the car is stock and runs into a grove the flex in the tyre and chassis allows the car to "climb" back out of it
to see if it is the alignment (tracking to be precice) look at your tyres;
if one edge is more worn than the other then it is prolly either camber or hard driving (if a car has perfect camber then the wheels are just about vertical but for people who drive hard the top can be moved inwards and this counteracts the wear and also can increase cornering ability)
if one of the middle quaters of the tyre are more worn than the other than its prollt alignment which means that the wheels are pointing in slightly different directions (this causes the pull) (it may not be noticed as much n new tyres with a blocky tread due to the flex in the tread) if the wheels are closer at the front than at the back its called toe in and if they are pointing away from each other (like there jelous) then its toe out
you may also hear about castor which is the angle (away from vertical) that the turn center line is i.e. if there is a lot of rake on the shock (like its trying to lie down) then you get a high castor figure (imagine if the top is further back than the bottom) this cant be adjusted on most vw`s without twisting the chassis slightly but can be affected by the rake of the suspensiopn drop (i.e. the rear of my car is 5mm higher than the front causing a slightly lower castor and thus faster turn in) for an example of manufaturer castor settings look at motorbikes and you will see that a sports bike has quite up right forks (twitchy handleing and very fast turn in) where as a cruiser such as a harley has much more rake and thus a higher castor (meaning a very sedate ride that drives its self and is less twitchy and slower turn in)
btw the idea of my own forum "dont encourage me just look at my post count already

"

polo2k · Post by **polo2k** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:41 am

for reference here are the most common weight positions (lines) on most wheels. i have marked positions that would/could never be used on my alloys too

the yellow is most commonly used on steelies and sometimes on alloys(hammered)
the green can be used on alloys with some dish(glued)

the red is used on allows and stelies (hmmered)
the green is used on allows (glued) you can see one fitted here
the black nd yellow are glued positions used on alloys
the best balencing on your alloys (using glued weigts is the green and yellow)

dxg · Post by **dxg** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 9:17 pm

Starting to really miss my baby.

Three weeks of a hire corsa is enough for anyone.

(That'll bring it to six weeks total corsa "ownership". My neighbours must be thinking I have a new car every few weeks.)

Add in the hire cars I use for work and it's been musical driveways round my place the last few months...

Deek

polo2k · Post by **polo2k** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:10 pm

lol maye the corsa is punishment

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Steering judder anyone?

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