Steering judder anyone?

Post by **mole** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 7:45 pm

In another thread Deek said

Do you get steering "shudder" at anything above 80? My dealer claims it's normal and won't do anything about it, but it definately isn't

Which made me think about the "shudder" I get through the wheel which starts about 60 slightly, and gets worse by 80.
I first thought it was my alloys out of balance or something, and didn't want to storm into VW saying it was their car at fault when it was clearly my "aftermarket wheels".

I have now removed my alloys for my winter wheels which have just been rebalanced and the problem is still there.

Im going to take it up with VW when I next take it in. Thinking of getting the damage seen to first, don't want them to blame it on the accident maybe?

So........ Has anyone else apart from dxg experienced this problem?
It would be nice to know.

des_pd_ tdi · Post by **des_pd_ tdi** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:43 am

No, but how can dealers say this is normal. I remember taking my golf to the dealers complaining about squeeling brakes, they tried to tell me it was a known problem with MKIV Golfs, yeah right.

Yet again dealers can't be bothered to sort these type of problems out, just get tough with them, threaten to talk to VW UK this usually gets the ball rolling.

dxg · Post by **dxg** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:30 pm

I spoke to my dealers this morning (to sort out a hire/courtesy car for next week), and - they agreed to look at the shudder!! (after saying it was normal)

Mole,

I need you help in constructing "a case". I seem to remember from the very early days of this board, that you said you have exactly the same engine as me - 1.4, 4 cylinder, 75hp - is that right? Also, I seem to recall that you got the normal suspension because you plan to "play" with it yourself later, yet I have VW's "sports" suspension.

If the above is correct, it would seem to suggest that the engine comes into it somewhere. Playing about on the M1 yesterday (specifically for this purpose

) I managed to pin the start of the shudder down to 3.5krpm in fifth, but not 3.5kpm in any other gear? Actually, that sounds like gearbox, maybe??

Who knows? - I will definately share my experiences with you next week.

Deek.

des_pd_ tdi · Post by **des_pd_ tdi** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 4:26 pm

Right I have the VW Sports suspension on my car with no shudder, plus point number one.

Also tell them you do not feel the car is safe to drive. If you want a hand writing a letter I'd be happy to help out, believe me I'm VW's worst nightmare, when it comes to complaints anyway.

Also, what happens if you get to the point of the shudder then drop down to fourth?

Post by **mole** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 4:48 pm

des, yeh tell me about it, well I'll certainly get tough if they try telling me this is normal.

Deek, Yup, I have the same engine as you, with standard suspension.
Not tried playing with it like that yet - i may do this evening, see if I can get the same results.

Mine is booked in for Thursday, so I'll let you know what they say.

des, that's in keeping with our "its not the suspension its the engine" idea.
I'll try that drop down to fourth idea when I go out testing later.

Cheers guys,
mole

dxg · Post by **dxg** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:12 pm

Also, what happens if you get to the point of the shudder then drop down to fourth?

Engine revs rise to match the road speed and shudder goes away.

I've had it pulling in fourth up to around 75-80ish with no sign of the shudder.

Definately beginning to think gearbox. But you can normally hear that if something's up (i.e. whining, grinding). Also the vibration is a low frequency, high displacement "shudder", not a high frequence, low displacement "grinding vibration" that a gearbox would give. But then this is all guesswork. I bought a new car so I wouldn't have to know this technical stuff.

I think I read somewhere that the Polo's gearbox is sealled - i.e. with oil for life in it. Sounds like it would a new gearbox, then - which kind of makes me understand why they have been reluctant to look at this so far.

Des,

Trust me, on the letter writing front I can handle my own (but I'm not that arrogant, and would gladly welcome your help if it goes back down that road). After buying this car, I now know the difference btwn the Sales of Goods Act and the Supply of Goods Act, and what phrases like "Without Prejudice" actually mean. * I don't want to know this *

dxg · Post by **dxg** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:15 pm

I remember taking my golf to the dealers complaining about squeeling brakes, they tried to tell me it was a known problem with MKIV Golfs, yeah right.

Was this in reverse, going slowly (i.e. backing out of a parking space). If so, then it's not a known problem, it's a known feature!!

Post by **mole** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 12:42 pm

I was hoping our results would be the same.... but they aren't.

I pulled to 85 in 4th and got the judder. Changed to 5th, and the judder was there, only even more violent. Then changed down to 4th, and it sometimes wasn't there, sometimes was.

Very strange... wait and see what they say!

"Our engineers couldn't find any judder sir"

Post by **mole** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 12:12 am

Just filling out my "Pre-Repair Diagnostic Questionnaire" as part of their "First-time fix commitment" - well as long as it get's the problem sorted, I don't care!

I'll let you know what I find out tomorrow. Hopefully good news.
But more likely "Couldn't find a problem there."

Post by **mole** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:09 pm

Just got back.
They said it was because of the snow tyres I've got on at the moment (Just got back from Sweden).

I thought this but....
I seem to remember it was there before I even put them on, on my other wheels but didn't want to argue incase it is infact the snow tyres

So.... I'll get them changed and see what happens afterwards.

Let me know what they say about yours next week.....

They ordered me 2 new seat belts, as mine aren't retracting anything like they used to, or like the cars in the showroom do. They refused there was a problem, but said they have ordered some anyway. Strange I thought.

They have also ordered a new cable because my passengers seat doesn't pull forwards anymore, to allow people in the back - which means I'm always getting in and out!!!

mole

dxg · Post by **dxg** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 10:18 pm

I'm "lucky" that mine is still exactly the same spec as when it left the showroom, so excuses like that shouldn't arise. We'll have to see, as I promise to keep you informed.

Just back from a run tonight to see if I do get the vibration in fourth - yes I do, flooring it up to 85-90 in fourth (5k revs) and the vibration is definately also there, so I can confirm your observation, Mole. Changing to fifth doesn't seem to make it any worse, thought. It just seems to stay constant.

As far as I can tell, it's related to road speed and that's all. I had thought maybe something to do with gearbox, but now that I've observed it in fourth and fifth, I'm not so sure. Maybe if it was an S2000, I would be able to hit that speed in third to completely rule out the gearbox!!

Anyway my current thinking is that perhaps some paneling is loose underneath - it's that sort of vibration. I know that Polo is suposed to have all this aerodynamic stuff underneath (i.e. panels instead of wax for corrosion as well) - but I haven't looked under my car yet (should I admit that in this company!!??!!). There is a huge lump of plastic that continues from under the front bumper to in front of sump - perhaps this isn't very secure?

Does anyone remember the mk2 Mundano when it first came out - S, R, P reg - did anyone notice that the early ones - when they went past you at 90+ had the bottom of their rear bumper "seriously" oscilating in the airflow - you didn't see it in later ones, so ford must have made a design change. Sometimes, you'll see these Mundanos with the bottom of their rear bumper missing - fatigue/cracking of the plastic I guess due to this.

Anyway, I'm guessing if its a result of a fundamental design decision of this nature - then the chances of getting it "fixed" are unlikely.

One the plus side though - fantastic run tonight. Roads were deserted. Down the side of the mway through country roads, onto the mway for the high speed testing. Perfect. The speed you can carry through the twisties in this thing is astounding. It just keeps gripping. And the brakes seem to be pretty fantastic too, now that it's worn in and I'm starting to push it properly. I've just fallen back in love with the Polo, despite these obviously "bad vibrations". Next week though, I'll be back to hating it - just wait and see!!

Deek.

dxg · Post by **dxg** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:00 pm

Has anyone read the report on the new polo at www.honestjohn.co.uk?

dxg · Post by **dxg** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:40 am

Well, as if to prove "honestjohn" right, my ecu and engine lights came on this morning, while driving it to the dealers. This will be the fourth or fifth time for me. And the first since the whole ECU and /don't know what the equivalent module is inside the cabin, but the immobiliser is part of it/ have both been replaced, supposedly to stop this happening.

Anyway, my baby is currently back there having shudder, rattles and now the ecu looked at again.

Dealer is suggesting the shudder could be as simple as an out of shape tyre or a damaged wheel. But this wouldn't match Mole's experiences.

Well, if you're in the Midlands, keep an eye out for a silver Corsa SXI being driven like a hire car (because it is one!!) - that will be me (for the foreseeable future, though - I have no date of return for my car

)

Interestingly, I asked the Vauxhall hire guy if they were making much money out of VW at the moment. His reply - "they're bringing us a fair bit of work!"

Deek.

(Trying to make do with the memories and the pictures in Members' Rides section (nice idea, guys!!))

Post by **mole** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:24 pm

Interesting read on HJ.

More ECU probs then deek?

Not good.

Had my tyres changed over on Sat, but the *******s never balanced the wheels by the looks of it!! So, that doesn't really help me at all.
The main vibration has gone though, but is replaced by a totally different vibration all the time from 30 onwards. I expect the big shudder problem was the tyres, and the new one out of balance wheels, but I'll have to get them balanced to confirm this - more mucking around

Anyway.... Let me know the outcome of your problems.

Mole

dxg · Post by **dxg** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:52 pm

Got the report from my dealer today that they've solved the shudder problem.

They say it was a wheel balancing problem.

I'll believe it when I see it (don't know yet when that will be, though).

Not sure why it's not yet ready for collection...

Anyway, this link is shamelessly stolen off pistonheads:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/autom ... ner=GOOGLE

It's mainly about coilpacks, but these quotes are a bit worrying:

"If you read consumer surveys and reports, Volkswagen's quality and reliability is consistently lower than the public's perception of it," said a senior executive at General Motors, which makes Opels in Germany and Saabs in Sweden.

How does Volkswagen explain the spate of poor ratings? Mr. Neumann said the staff of Consumer Reports tested cars randomly bought from dealers. He said some of these might be "Monday cars," a term that refers to cars that might have been built by workers nursing post-weekend hangovers. Mr. Neumann said Volkswagen's actual quality was probably never as high as its peak level in the surveys nor as low as the latest results would suggest. "I don't want to play down quality issues; we have quality issues," he said. "But I want to say that we've addressed them properly."

That uncertainty was palpable at the Geneva motor show, where Mr. Neumann found it easier to discuss how Volkswagen planned to replace broken ignition coils than how many cars it hoped to sell.

I thought it wasn't possible to get a Monday car any more. But then , the automotive manufacturers have been spending the last ten years working inspection out of their manufacturing processes because Womack et al with their lean manufacturing told them they didn't need them!!

These academics, eh? Who'd be one??

Deek.