At least Dick Turpin wore a mask!!

[wolfie]

My little Polo (1.2Tsi, 2011) is in for service and MOT today, while in I also asked them to take a look a small issue. This is the little note I left them.

"Fault
Normally on start-up from cold the engine initially sits at around 1200rpm for 30 seconds or so, then quickly drops to a stable 600rpm at tick-over. The car has done this from new.

Approximately 3-4 week ago this behaviour changed. At start-up from cold the tick-over is now erratic. It no longer starts off at 1200rpm before settling to a steady 600rpm. Idle speed now seems to fluctuate between 1000 and 800 and seems reluctant to settle to a stable 600rpm (though blipping the throttle slightly will sometimes cause it to settle to 600-800rpm, though not consistently. Even when the engine is fully warm the idle speed continues to fluctuate between 1000 and 600.

In normal driving the car seem absolutely fine with no warning lights or other issues."

Now the car has passed it's MOT without any problems and the technician did a simple "fault code" read that shows no faults logged. However he says there is a Service bulletin/software update related to "Tick-over, idle-speed" The cost of a software update is £99. (though it may not resolve the issue)

Is it any wonder that VW are earning a reputation for being a bunch of shysters, if they think this is how they should look after their customer. I have no issue in paying for repairs if something is faulty or dirty. But when there is a fault with the car that they have issued a software update for and want the customer to pay for the privilege of putting their tat right is taking the Michael.

Do we have any technicians who use the site who may now the details of this bulletin/software update? Or anyone know where you can access Vdud service bulletin info?

[alexperkins]

I didnt think they were allowed to charge for software updates. These should be done as part of a service

[Ricmondo]

Interesting.

You identify this as a new issue so presumably start up and idle has been okay for five years but something has happened which has caused the problem, wear and tear or perhaps a specific event.

Flash back to the Rover SD1 Vitesse. I had a connection with an organization that ran a fleet of them. After 35000 miles or so virtually every one developed a misfire and starting problems. Proper independent investigation revealed that the engine liked a richer mixture in its initial running period. After clocking up a reasonable mileage the mixture needed to be weakened across the bottom to middle ranges and richened at the top end. BL were not prepared to help so we had a tuning specialist prepare modified ECUs. The problem was duly fixed and we approached BL for a contribution towards the costs, they declined saying it was wear and tear. We assumed they just didn't have the expertise or perhaps feared establishing a prescedence. We were advised by QC that they were within their rights to refuse to help or contribute towards our costs. VW, or perhaps more specifically their dealer would appear to be going down that road so you probably will just have to suck up the cost.

I sometimes long for the days when you could mend your car with a tin opener and a quick look at the Haynes Manual although a lot of my cars came from the era when Mr Haynes was producing typewritten booklets on a crank handle duplicator so it was stick a finger in the air and make a guess time.

[wolfie]

Maybe I've become a cynic in my old age but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if there was some software adaptor that tweaked setting dependant on some parameter or other. After all that is what Vdud are up in court for; modifying cars like they are going out of fashion.

I have no qualms in paying for things that are worn, broken or even need cleaning to keep them operating at their best. But when you describe a fault and they already know there is a service bulletin relating to a software update that could even "possibly" be related it should be done as a matter of course, if nothing else to keep the car current.

Anyway I've now collected the car and they said they have checked the cars fault code log and nothing is showing. The car has passed it's MOT with no advisories and the service has been done. If I want the update doing that would be £99 for a full diagnostic and software. I don't mind paying to fix stuff that's broken, but getting the customer top pay to just to keep the software current is taking the pish.

Now I like Vduds, or should I say used to. I've driven nothing else since about 1993 and generally been more than happy with them. But my gut feeling is quality and reliability certainly are not what they once were. And the customer service in the big shiny showrooms is all smoke and mirrors and just an excuse to turn up the wick on profit margins for mediocre service at best.

Anyone know of any good independents in the Stoke-on-Trent area?

[wolfie]

I didnt think they were allowed to charge for software updates. These should be done as part of a service

Now you've mentioned I'm sure I read something about that some months ago (Can't remember where) Think I will ring or email Vdud customer service later today. Has to be worth the price of a phone call.

[Robby71]

I'm sure all dealers carry out the same tasks during a service and saw this looking through Google - http://www.robinsonsmotorgroup.co.uk/vo ... servicing/

It states -

Service measure and updates checked and performed

As manufacturer approved franchise workshops, we have exclusive access to manufacturer technical support and service measure information relating to your car. When your vehicle visits us, we will look for any notifications of updates to enhance the operation and efficiency for your vehicle and will complete these free of charge.

[wolfie]

I'm sure all dealers carry out the same tasks during a service and saw this looking through Google - http://www.robinsonsmotorgroup.co.uk/vo ... servicing/

It states -

Service measure and updates checked and performed

As manufacturer approved franchise workshops, we have exclusive access to manufacturer technical support and service measure information relating to your car. When your vehicle visits us, we will look for any notifications of updates to enhance the operation and efficiency for your vehicle and will complete these free of charge.

Cheers for the above link. It prompted me to have a look at the VW UK website and so far as I can see, it doesn't even mention "Updates" So I guess different dealerships/franchises pick and choose what services they include. As a by the by, a mate who runs a Skoda says they also do updates for free.

I sent a polite email to VW customer service yesterday and said how "disappointed" I was. Return email said he was holiday until the 18th...LOL But as I requested a read receipt it looks like it got bounced around to a number of recipients, (probably automated) but we will see what comes of it.

Do independent VW specialist have access to software updates??

Again, thanks for the link.

[Robby71]

a lot (not all) indis can access updates but only if they subscribe (pay) the manufacturers i believe.

It might be worth calling some local dealers and asking if they include this as part of a service, you can then go back to the dealer you used and ask why they charge?

I deliver to a VW dealer most days - i'll see if they charge for updates and if it's supposed to be included

I have a Ford and updates are included as part of a service - i always thought it was part of the service unless it's just for cars under 3 years old in warranty?

[wolfie]

@Robby71

Cheers mate, thanks for asking around, much appreciated.

From what little reading I've done it appears Vdud have changed the way that their diagnostic system operates. (2014 ish) VAG Group now use the ODIS system, "Offboard Diagnostic & Information System" which appears to connect directly to servers at a number of factory locations and is licenced. What that has to do with whether a particular franchise charges for the service I don't know.

Anyway if Vdud or the dealer wont play ball I think I've found a local diagnostic chap who has invested in the latest ODIS gear so will give him a ring. My hope is he would know if there are any updates available to him.

To be honest I think I've had it with VW. I've driven nowt else for almost 25 years, not because I'm some VW Fanboy but because I've got good deals and the quality has been good. I don't think that is the case anymore, particularly with the Polo. Quality has been slipping in the build & components in the last generation of vehicles. And I don't think they've built an engine that is without some sort of inherent fault for 10 years or more. Add to that the dealerships are basically rubbish, charging top rate for work that is no better than a back street garage can manage. Big shiny buildings full of Jack-the lad salesmen looking to ring up their commission.

[alexperkins]

To be honest I think I've had it with VW. I've driven nowt else for almost 25 years, not because I'm some VW Fanboy but because I've got good deals and the quality has been good. I don't think that is the case anymore, particularly with the Polo. Quality has been slipping in the build and components in the last generation of vehicles. And I don't think they've built an engine that is without some sort of inherent fault for 10 years or more. Add to that the deal-ships are basically rubbish. Big shiny buildings full of Jack-the lad salesmen.

Im starting to feel the same way. They dont invest the money into the quality anymore, and its all glossy sales tactics - once they have your money, they arent interested

We're starting to look at replacing the Tiguan as its getting older, and whilst the new tiguan thats soon to come out looks brilliant, i just dont feel driven to want to get another VW at this point in time. The nissan qashqai seems alot better value for money, and its reviews are excellent. Sad to move from VW, but backwards isnt progress.

[wolfie]

Im starting to feel the same way. They dont invest the money into the quality anymore, and its all glossy sales tactics - once they have your money, they arent interested

We're starting to look at replacing the Tiguan as its getting older, and whilst the new tiguan thats soon to come out looks brilliant, i just dont feel driven to want to get another VW at this point in time. The nissan qashqai seems alot better value for money, and its reviews are excellent. Sad to move from VW, but backwards isnt progress.

Glad it's not just me that feels that way. Think I've become complacent when looking to change cars and been in the grip of brand loyalty for too long. It's made me blinkered in that I've not looked too hard at other manufacturers. Friend opposite has just bought a Yaris Hybrid and the build quality looks better than the Polo, with some good incentives and after-care packages thrown in. I think when it's time to change I will be casting the net a little further this time and seeing just what is out there for in most cases less money.

[Wolfi]

To be honest I think I've had it with VW. I've driven nowt else for almost 25 years, not because I'm some VW Fanboy but because I've got good deals and the quality has been good. I don't think that is the case anymore, particularly with the Polo. Quality has been slipping in the build and components in the last generation of vehicles. And I don't think they've built an engine that is without some sort of inherent fault for 10 years or more. Add to that the deal-ships are basically rubbish. Big shiny buildings full of Jack-the lad salesmen.

Im starting to feel the same way. They dont invest the money into the quality anymore, and its all glossy sales tactics - once they have your money, they arent interested

We're starting to look at replacing the Tiguan as its getting older, and whilst the new tiguan thats soon to come out looks brilliant, i just dont feel driven to want to get another VW at this point in time. The nissan qashqai seems alot better value for money, and its reviews are excellent. Sad to move from VW, but backwards isnt progress.

At the end of the day, VW are a business. The biggest (and most powerful?) in Germany. Any big company which says it's interested in the Corporate Social Responsibility, quality, safety etc over profit are just talking rubbish. They're the same as Politicians. But most are naiive enough to believe it. Most successful retired businessmen and entrepreneurs admit that the money was the only real goal. If you believe anything else, you're living in cloud-cuckoo-land. It's a similar story at car manufacturers. Ford, GM, PSA, Mercedes have been at it for years, with BMW and to an extent VW are catching up. The problem is with the whole auto industry, not just VW. They have to follow suit to stay competitive. VW have already almost gone bust in the 70s and 90s for spending too close to what they charged. The proof is in the pudding: Mercedes make 10% profit on each car sold, VW Group 6.4%, PSA 5%, but VW Passenger cars are lagging way behind at 2.8%. Audi and Porsche are the only ones propping the Group's sales up so high. Make of that what you will...

Years ago, if your TV or washing machine broke, you'd ring someone up to fix it and it'd be as good as new. You'd repair it for years and years until it had more new parts than original ones! Now if it breaks, you go down to John Lewis, buy a new one and have it fitted that day. It's the same with cars. Nowadays, cars are borrowed on finance for 3 years, enjoyed, and handed back to do the same again. Manufacturer sells new cars, customer gets a shiny new model. Everyone's happy... So why, if Joe Public only keeps his cars for 3 years/30,000 miles should manufacturers waste money making them reliable? Spend it on new tech to attract them in the first place! Most technical household goods (eg TV, Phone, Washing Machine) are now just built to a shelf-life and then be thrown away. Cars are going exactly the same way...

Plus the fact the car engineers are pushed extremely hard to come up with the brand new, clever tech that keeps the manufacturer ahead of the game. It's a constant, never-ending battle. Think of it. Design it. Shout about it. Sell it. Repeat... There is no time for engineers to be buggering about with loads of reliability testing. They'd be soon out of the job if they were.

In 2016, the bottom line is that reliability and quality just isn't anywhere near top on manufacturers priorities any more. VW are guilty of this, but there are a lot of others far worse.

As far as I can see, its only really the Japanese manufacturers that are different. You could argue they are changing their ways with all the recall trouble! After all, the Germans changed, so it's likely that the Japanese will one day too... Its just a shame from their point of view that the rest of their car's assets are so poor. The thought of buying an Auris, Jazz or Prius makes me want to go to sleep, but there you go!

However, I do agree that while VW cars are (generally!) very good, VW UK (inc. dealer network) is a shocking organisation. No thought for customer service or courtesy whatsoever. VW would sell so many more cars in this country if they knew how to treat people properly.

[RUM4MO]

Unfortunately I agree with too much of what has been said above!

If you think VW is bad for how their shiny glass palaces operate, maybe try Audi, you need to run the gauntlet of a bevy of pretty meeters and greeters and sit quietly for a while until you can move forward to sit at a desk - even same for parts! Meanwhile clearly visible behind glass panels, sales teams and management sit bored desperately gazing into their mobile phones - not good, all smoke and mirrors. Give me a real dealership with sales teams that try to sell you what you want backed up with a service area that sees you as being one of their customers - and a sensible accessible parts department, and I'd take a different stand here!

[wolfie]

Unfortunately I agree with too much of what has been said above!

Likewise, though I do wonder if it's not so much the cars car/components lasting the warranty period because of being paired down during the design of the vehicle. Or it's now part of the design brief to "make it last the warranty" Years back you'd see bangers riddled with rust but mechanically sound, yet today you hardly see a rusty car on the road. It's far more likely that it's gone beyond economic repair due to some complex bit of wizardry under the bonnet playing up. It's getting to the point where anything more complex than a set of pads & disks or basic oil change necessitates plugging the car into HAL9000 to diagnose the fault and print off the bill. Many repairs are beyond the scope of the DIY motorist because of the kit required.

I happened to catch the latest VW add on TV with all the various VW models owned down the generations, I guess trying to remind folk how reliable cars of the past used to be. But all manufacturers do the same and now sell the "idea" or "lifestyle" rather than the product. Though I am old enough to remember the "If only everything was as reliable as a Volkswagen" slogan, so guess I fell for that one, at least in part.

There are things that I still like from the VW brand. I like that they are understated, even tagged as boring by some. They may not make the design students happy but they don't show their age as quickly as those with quirky design. Interiors as simple and fairly hardy, free of gadgets and gizmo's at least for now. Weak points are the latest tech engines, they all appear fragile or temperamental. As above that may well be due to engineers chasing the goalposts on the ever changing emission standards and striving to innovate but as someone who doesn't change their car every 3 years longevity is significant on my list. Though I agree the throw the car away at the end of the lease/PCP is now a big driver for many.

Perceived or otherwise I think VW were once at least a couple of notches up the quality scale compared to other manufacturers. I don't know whether it's simply a case being caught up so the price premiums they always asked don't look as attractive now or VW have changed their approach to how they build cars, or even how much of that is actually down to rubbish dealerships just not putting the effort in. At least locally I have heard folk singing the praise of Skoda/Seat dealers and they all run the same oily bits underneath so maybe it's not the vehicles as such but the backup that's not up to the task.

[RUM4MO]

You know, the VW Polo used to get good press, so I guess it earned its stripes as a car that could be trusted, by the time the 6N models appeared, a list of under performing issues started to appear, like handbrakes ripping out of the floor, clutch pedals collapsing and petrol engines that really had no place in modern cars of that time due to performance and economy. Then the brand new Polo 9N appeared, to me they seemed okay so I bought one new for my wife - unfortunately it was only then that I realised that Polo 9N > onwards were basically just Skoda Fabia with some different "clothes" and options, the main trouble being, the suspension etc was all made by Skoda's preferred CZ based industries and that meant, even in this modern age and strict VAG QA procedures, that all these bits were made from cheap tat or junk steel! To me, that hurt as I was being mugged and I needed to pay a lot of money early on it that car's life to fix that car. It was only then that I realised that I liked my B5 Passat 4Motion, not because it was a VW, but because it was mainly made from old well tested Audi parts! The knowledge that the 1.2TSI 16V petrol engines were all made in CZ factories worries me quite a lot, but I went ahead and bought my wife a brand new Polo 1.2TSI last August - so far so good apart from a short list of parts that VW do not seem happy to bother fitting to that Polo, I sorted that out quickly after buying that car.

Bad news for my local VW dealer, they sent out a "special invitation" to my wife today for an event that ended on the 12th April - they need to sort that out!