Chiptuning a leased GTI

[EmiLiuZ]

Hi guys.

If i were to chip tune a leased Polo GTI from VW and then returning it back to fabric standards upon delivering the car back.
Would there be any issues? Can VW see that it has been modified before and do they ignore that fact if the car has been returned to the standard settings?

[OomStu_ZA]

yes they can - rather rent a porsche if its performance you after.

[green justin]

i wound not chip my car, in standard form they run quite hot in engine temps already here in South Africa plus traction control issues.

[monkeyhanger]

Tuning boxes have fallen out of popularity a bit.

You used to be able to fit one and have no warranty issues because they couldn't be detected. I had one myself on my 2013 MK7 GTD and it transformed the car.

To put it into easy terms to visualise, the chipped car pulled in 6th like the stock car pulled in 4th. No mpg penalties because you're only on the throttle hard for a tiny proportion of the journey as a whole, and my insurance company wanted only 8% more premium for my 184ps/380Nm GTD becoming a Golf GTI/Focus ST spanking 240ps/450Nm monster.

Alas, since the time around the Golf MK7 facelift (2016 build and newer), tuning boxes are detectable - TD flags, reflash counts, analysis of implausible sensor readings etc.

It's not a cert your car will be flagged as altered, apparently only VW central can decipher the ECU and sensory readings - the dealership will plug your car into their diagnostic systems and send them to VW central, and even then, only if drivetrain components fail in warranty. If you come in for a dead battery, new shocks or migrating bolster sponge on your seats, they will not give your car's ECU a deep analysis to refuse work (they'll find another reason not to do it! ).

If you've leased a problem-free car and hand it back, it's highly unlikely that VW will analyse it on receipt.

However, if you have a turbo die, catastrophic DSG gearbox failure, manual clutch slip etc.while you're leasing, it's likely that repair bill will be on you.

That being said, I think that the Polo GTI is likely to be a good candidate for remapping/chipping. The engine (EA888) and turbo is used on the Golf GTI up to 245ps (with R, GTI CS/CSS, they get the EA113 with a bigger turbo). The DQ250 DSG gearbox is same used in 300ps, pre-facelift Golf R.

Weakest link for Polo GTI engine is the smaller intercooler, but it's good to 250ps according to the remappers, and that's as far as the stage one remappers are taking the Polo GTI.

If you can get a remap or box that doesn't enhance output in 1st gear, you're no more likely to tramp the front wheels than you are on stock. Brakes are adequate for 250ps, although you could upgrade if you wanted to.

[fazzy]

Hi guys.

If i were to chip tune a leased Polo GTI from VW and then returning it back to fabric standards upon delivering the car back.
Would there be any issues? Can VW see that it has been modified before and do they ignore that fact if the car has been returned to the standard settings?

No issues at all if you install a tuning box. My Polo is running a box for quite a while now. Easy to install. Plug into two sensors and you're up and running. 15 minute job as you have to jack up the car and get under the splash plate as one of the plugs is unreachable from the top. Second sensor is right on top of the engine.
After removal VW cannot see anything and cannot prove anything. Thank you.

[monkeyhanger]

Tuning boxes fitted and removed are detectable on 2016 and onward VAG engines. This has been discussed at length on Golf forums and mode of detection was demonstrated on a few threads with diagnostic reports highlighting the areas of scrutiny.

However - unless the box is running to extremes and throwing up error codes such as extreme high oil/water temperatures, this isn't obvious to the dealership and they won't dig deep to find the indications you have had a box on unless you have a major drivetrain issue under warranty.

It's a risk that a big bill will be coming your way if your turbo or gearbox goes, or something happens to the engine itself.

Pretty much all of the indicators that you've had a box on are circumstantial on their own. If you have a big problem after fitting a box and VW refuse you warranty, you're going to have to take the supplying dealership to the small claims court (in UK law at least, the dealership has the burden of ultimate responsibility for warranty, and expect reimbursement from VW) and make them prove beyond reasonable doubt that your car had a box on and that it was a contributory factor in the failure. Most people won't fight the dealership/VWs refusal decision in court. If you do, you'll almost certainly need impartial engineering reports etc.

As I have experienced myself with my Polo and the tailgate set-up from the factory being incorrect, VW will do all they can to weasel out of paying for genuine warranty claims.

I'm not saying that a box will wreck your drivetrain, but if you have had a box on, and you get a failure that VW could pin on a box, they will, despite most of the hardware being used also on the 245ps Golf GTI - so it should be robust enough to run at 245ps.

If they were undetectable, I'd probably have one on now.

[mjsaville]

Tuning boxes fitted and removed are detectable on 2016 and onward VAG engines. This has been discussed at length on Golf forums and mode of detection was demonstrated on a few threads with diagnostic reports highlighting the areas of scrutiny.

However - unless the box is running to extremes and throwing up error codes such as extreme high oil/water temperatures, this isn't obvious to the dealership and they won't dig deep to find the indications you have had a box on unless you have a major drivetrain issue under warranty.

It's a risk that a big bill will be coming your way if your turbo or gearbox goes, or something happens to the engine itself.

Pretty much all of the indicators that you've had a box on are circumstantial on their own. If you have a big problem after fitting a box and VW refuse you warranty, you're going to have to take the supplying dealership to the small claims court (in UK law at least, the dealership has the burden of ultimate responsibility for warranty, and expect reimbursement from VW) and make them prove beyond reasonable doubt that your car had a box on and that it was a contributory factor in the failure. Most people won't fight the dealership/VWs refusal decision in court. If you do, you'll almost certainly need impartial engineering reports etc.

As I have experienced myself with my Polo and the tailgate set-up from the factory being incorrect, VW will do all they can to weasel out of paying for genuine warranty claims.

I'm not saying that a box will wreck your drivetrain, but if you have had a box on, and you get a failure that VW could pin on a box, they will, despite most of the hardware being used also on the 245ps Golf GTI - so it should be robust enough to run at 245ps.

If they were undetectable, I'd probably have one on now.

Nice... Excellent feedback here, very wise words....

[fazzy]

I'm not getting into discussion based on what someone else said on another forum
Just since 2016 I installed probably around 100 boxes to different cars. I installed them, I took them off, I had the cars scanned by the dealers and somehow nobody could prove anything. Yes, the values of certain parameters could be higher or lower, but that is no reason to void the guarantee. You know why? Because by fitting the box, you don't exceed any values set by the manufacturer. If you do exceed the values and go out of range, check engine light will come on. If you don't exceed the values, the manufacturer can prove nothing. Many of these parameters are exceeded when there is something wrong with the car irrespective of box installed or not. For example, if your airflow meter is faulty, same parameters will go through the roof and then what? You loose your guarantee just because your airflow meter is faulty? Same goes for map sensor. If it's faulty and you replace it, upon scanning the ECU history the parameters again will be out of range. You loose your guarantee? Don't think so.
The only case where they will decline the guarantee claim is when the owner admits to having a box installed.

[monkeyhanger]

I'm not getting into discussion based on what someone else said on another forum
Just since 2016 I installed probably around 100 boxes to different cars. I installed them, I took them off, I had the cars scanned by the dealers and somehow nobody could prove anything. Yes, the values of certain parameters could be higher or lower, but that is no reason to void the guarantee. You know why? Because by fitting the box, you don't exceed any values set by the manufacturer. If you do exceed the values and go out of range, check engine light will come on. If you don't exceed the values, the manufacturer can prove nothing. Many of these parameters are exceeded when there is something wrong with the car irrespective of box installed or not. For example, if your airflow meter is faulty, same parameters will go through the roof and then what? You loose your guarantee just because your airflow meter is faulty? Same goes for map sensor. If it's faulty and you replace it, upon scanning the ECU history the parameters again will be out of range. You loose your guarantee? Don't think so.
The only case where they will decline the guarantee claim is when the owner admits to having a box installed.

Have you installed on 100+ cars (including VAG cars) built from 2016 and onwards?

Have any of those cars suffered a hefty drivetrain claim under warranty such as blown turbo, DSG gearbox failure, or catastrophic engine failure?

Only if you answer yes to both of those questions can you say with any confidence that VW cannot detect use of a tuning box.

If you've installed boxes on over 100 cars, do you sell and install them for a living or just have access to so many cars recreationally or through pool cars at work etc?

Anyone selling these items have an ulterior motive to protect their interests. So many tuning box companies used to sell these boxes on the basis that there was no warranty risk because they were undetectable. Most have stopped doing that on their websites and won't help you in the event of a warranty claim refusal.

The thread I mentioned on the Golf GTI forum was for an Audi (using the same Bosch ECUs) It demonstrated the report supplied by Audi central following ECU contents download that only Audii Central could interpret, and the dealership could not do locally. You won't be able to see any more than the dealership can.

VW will always reserve the right to refuse warranty claims and you'll end up having to take legal action to compel them to do so if they can't prove why they're refusing.

These boxes generally work by taking a signal output from the ECU and altering it before it gets to it's intended destination (MAF sensor, fuel rail/pump etc.). There are feedback logs now (Vauxhall/Opel have had these since 2014, VAG since 2016) which log the signal sent and signal received and can take the discrepancies seen as proof of having a tuning box unless the receiving sensor is shown to be faulty). VW central has access to the full readout, not the dealer. You'll get a copy of the summary report if they are refusing warranty work on this basis of tuning box "proof"

This manipulation of signals is the reason your fuel consumption reads low with abox on. This is usually a selling point for the box companies that claim fuel economy is improved when in reality the car is fooled into thinking it is using less fuel than it actually is as fuel metering signals are understated by the box.

[fazzy]

Master theoretician
1700 posts of internet theory is paying off. When you do one yourself and you understand what your do, then we'll talk again.

[monkeyhanger]

Master theoretician
1700 posts of internet theory is paying off. When you do one yourself and you understand what your do, then we'll talk again.

How can you say absolutely that these boxes are undetectable, just because you've never had yourself or a client (if you do sell these boxes) in that situation where a turbo has gone or similar major drivetrain issue has occurred (for a 2016 and onward VAG wiuth the newer generation of Bosch ECU)?

There are safety limits built in for the governance of certain bits of hardware, but VW also have set up limits that fall well within those. If you're close to those safety limits but well beyond plausibility limits for the factory state of tune, that will come under scrutiny if VW are given a reason to scrutinise.

If I thought VWs were rock solid in their reliability, I'd probably chance it, but I've had turbo failures on 2 of 10 unmodified VWs bought from new within warranty.

I want a tuning box when my warranty is up, but let's not kid ourselves that boxes are undetectable (just because you or the dealership can't detect) and therefore there's no risk of having warranty refused if the worst should happen.

[OomStu_ZA]

Master theoretician
1700 posts of internet theory is paying off. When you do one yourself and you understand what your do, then we'll talk again.

bit cocky init?

we all just trying to undersatnd how you able to bypass OEM system checks?

[fazzy]

Master theoretician
1700 posts of internet theory is paying off. When you do one yourself and you understand what your do, then we'll talk again.

bit cocky init?

we all just trying to undersatnd how you able to bypass OEM system checks?

Cocky? Bru, maybe I just know what I'm doing and get irritated by people who get their knowledge from internet forums while sitting behind a desk and not getting their hands dirty.
There are different types of boxes out there on the market. Some even require cutting original wiring loom... and some don't. Some could be detectible, and some aren't.
I wrote several months ago, when I tested a 1.0 70kW Polo, that I plugged in a box and then it was tested by the dealer extensively looking for any abnormalities and anything that could suggest a box which was plugged in.
Nothing... soft was downloaded and sent to VW as a potential warranty breach and...?
Nothing.
I'm telling you things that I discovered from experience and not by reading n-teen forums and repeating stuff whatever other people wrote.
In 2003 I built a 1000 HP Viper with 40 point nitrous injection. I was told that it's impossible to do that. I'll tell you more... NX even told me that it will probably not work. Guess what... There is no such thing as impossible.
How many times some people here repeated that most you will get out of the Polo is 245 HP - due to the small intercooler? Guess what... at least two Polos that I know of are running well in excess of 250 on a remap with the std intercooler. Sure, they will probably be even better if the cooler was bigger. But some people keep on repeating that it cannot be done even though they haven't tried it.
But you tell me that I'm cocky?

[monkeyhanger]

There's a difference between I'll advised and impossible. Burgersports, makers of some of the best tuning boxes out there (JB4) were commenting on their Polo GTI product development and advised they'd hit a 245ps ceiling on the standard intercooler because of higher temperatures experienced. It was a " you shouldn't" rather than "you mustn't".exceed 245ps on standard intercooler.

The IS20 turbo as used on the Polo GTI and the lower output Golf GTIs isn't used with than a stock power output of 245ps, so going above that is stretching the capabilities a little - 265ps (Golf GTI Clubsport) uses the same turbo as the Golf R uses.

Being within 245ps on stock components seems a safe bet for longevity.

I do have a bit of knowledge about tuning boxes - my MK7 Golf GTD was used for development of a newer generation of DTUK box and I was given plenty of insight into the workings of the unit and the simple maps for MAF and fuel rail sensor signal modification.

I have seen a report showing the indicators of modification for a 2017 Audi's logged sensory.values, it was well documented on the Golf GTI forum. There was the suggestion that some of these logged values could be cleared by removing the battery after the box had been removed. It was inconclusive.

Not worth the risk for most reliant on the warranty to avoid a potential big repair bill.

[Rosinfield]

My Polo GTI 2.0 is chipped to 270 hp/440 Nm. All values amply within safe limits. That's the max however without any hardware changes. Much more is not possible with this engine, even with hardware changes. It all depends on how often you use the extra power of course. Great advantage of this Budak cycle engine, is that nothing happens as long as you drive normally. The extra power only comes in when you ask for it.