reality shock - diagnostic charges

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grazuncle2
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reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by grazuncle2 »

I have recently had a problem with high idle rpm. posted on the forum link below.

viewtopic.php?t=78302&sid=75ea64185c504 ... 2ca2b21d83

I reviewed a lot of YT videos and vacuum leak seemed to be the most common problem indicating High rpm idle, then IAC valve and then throttle position sensor - I had a good look over the car's hoses myself and found nothing un-towards. (I recently fitted a reversing camera into the reverse circuit and so disconnected the circuit to the camera just in case it was having some effect on the canbus network - no change whatsoever)

Took the car to my friendly local garage and he had a good look; thought it was a hose leak initially but found nothing. He doesn't have VW specific diagnostic stuff so suggested I take it to VW as it is under warranty (another three weeks of it left). I phoned our local VW garage.. told them I wanted it looked at and told them the problem. first question; is it under warranty? I said yes. rep said if the problem is not a warranty fault I will be charged £150 plus parts and £150 p/h after that if required. £150 for just looking at it. :shock: :shock: :shock:

I gulped and reluctantly booked it in with everything crossed :(

When you buy a vehicle and they offer a warranty it all sounds so cosy and 'you will have nothing to worry about' - (like all insurances) till you need it. I'm not hopeful that this fix will be under warranty and they will find some excuse to put it under something else. I have little confidence in the VW garages I have used.

I'll post back when i can.. at least two weeks before they can look at it.
MikeDO
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by MikeDO »

Sorry to hear this :(
Typical response from a main dealer in my experience sadly!

Even though my car is only some 6 months old, this is why I'm hesitating now about taking my car in for the intermittent (and very annoying) "Travel Assist currently unavailable" message that keeps on popping up for no apparent reason!!!
A dozen times in only a couple of miles journey this morning, then no sign of it when I take the car out in the afternoon.

I'll be interested to hear how you get on.

Good luck. Think you might need it.
grazuncle2
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by grazuncle2 »

Thanks for replying MikeDO

It is frustrating having intermittent faults.

I have had the yellow triangle on just twice since buying this car (nearly 2yrs ago, as used)... may be coincidence but only noticed it when driving steeply downhill. I bought an entry level OBD scanner but it won't show this fault as historic and I don't have any CEL light with this current fault.. which apparently you do with the problem with the multitude of sensors in modern cars.

Yes, I'm at the mercy of the garage and their impartiality.... LOL

Yes I'll certainly get back with the findings but it will be a couple of weeks before they can get me in. if the findings help someone then that is what this forum is all about.. good or bad.

All the best with your issues too, friend.
RUM4MO
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by RUM4MO »

MikeDO wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 6:12 pm Sorry to hear this :(
Typical response from a main dealer in my experience sadly!

Even though my car is only some 6 months old, this is why I'm hesitating now about taking my car in for the intermittent (and very annoying) "Travel Assist currently unavailable" message that keeps on popping up for no apparent reason!!!
A dozen times in only a couple of miles journey this morning, then no sign of it when I take the car out in the afternoon.

I'll be interested to hear how you get on.

Good luck. Think you might need it.
Depending on how you use your car, the battery might be low on charge in the morning after a cold start, have you ever considered connecting it up to a smart charger overnight just to see if improving the battery charge stops this happening in the morning?
RUM4MO
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by RUM4MO »

I have owned VW Group cars since May 2000, in maybe early 2001, I bought VCDS, or VAG-COM as it was initially called, that scan tool has saved me a lot of wasted time and really puts me more in charge especially when needing to get some warranty issues resolved.
After my wife bought her second new VW Polo in August 2015, VW sent her out a survey to complete - there was a section which asked the question "why did you chose to buy a VW?" or similar, I filled that bit in for her and the reply to that question was "because my husband owns a VCDS scan tool" - probably a snide or wasted answer as who ever checks these surveys will have zip all knowledge of things like scan tools, but it made me feel good for a second or two!

In truth, that answer was correct as I'd always now plan to be able to carry out my own fault diagnosis to avoid wasting time and being relieved of too much money - and still having the same or similar issues to then get sorted out.

When my older daughter bought her new SEAT Leon Cupra back in maybe September 2019, I eventually checked its stored logged faults, there were about 10 which had been generated/created during initial build in the factory, completely missed by PDI. So, she could have wasted a few hours/miles getting that sorted out, or I could just record them and clear them, which I did.
My younger daughter bought a used SEAT Arona and its battery failed, the AA attended and fitted a new battery, and hopefully coded it to the car - but left the logged faults in memory, that was maybe typical but messy, so I cleared them so that "we" now had a starting point where there were no logged faults, which is useful for the future.

The motor trade just does not seem to be behaving itself very much nowadays, which is annoying.
grazuncle2
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by grazuncle2 »

Depending on how you use your car, the battery might be low on charge in the morning after a cold start, have you ever considered connecting it up to a smart charger overnight just to see if improving the battery charge stops this happening in the morning?
[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestion..

I regularly keep the battery topped up over night and took it on a long run recently. The high idling persists. I'm no expert to say there is nothing wrong with the battery though the the standing charge was 12.8v when taking ti off the charger this morning and still, after the warm up it was consistently held at 1200rpm.
grazuncle2
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by grazuncle2 »

RUM4MO wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 1:08 pm I have owned VW Group cars since May 2000, in maybe early 2001, I bought VCDS, or VAG-COM as it was initially called, that scan tool has saved me a lot of wasted time and really puts me more in charge especially when needing to get some warranty issues resolved.
After my wife bought her second new VW Polo in August 2015, VW sent her out a survey to complete - there was a section which asked the question "why did you chose to buy a VW?" or similar, I filled that bit in for her and the reply to that question was "because my husband owns a VCDS scan tool" - probably a snide or wasted answer as who ever checks these surveys will have zip all knowledge of things like scan tools, but it made me feel good for a second or two!

In truth, that answer was correct as I'd always now plan to be able to carry out my own fault diagnosis to avoid wasting time and being relieved of too much money - and still having the same or similar issues to then get sorted out.

When my older daughter bought her new SEAT Leon Cupra back in maybe September 2019, I eventually checked its stored logged faults, there were about 10 which had been generated/created during initial build in the factory, completely missed by PDI. So, she could have wasted a few hours/miles getting that sorted out, or I could just record them and clear them, which I did.
My younger daughter bought a used SEAT Arona and its battery failed, the AA attended and fitted a new battery, and hopefully coded it to the car - but left the logged faults in memory, that was maybe typical but messy, so I cleared them so that "we" now had a starting point where there were no logged faults, which is useful for the future.

The motor trade just does not seem to be behaving itself very much nowadays, which is annoying.
Thanks for the reply

I have looked at more advanced diagnostic OBD scanners and considering the charge to 'just look' at vehicles today, they seem a bargain. I have looked at many YT videos... principally OBD Eleven.. and whilst they do do a lot of stuff; knowing what to do with the information is not as straightforward as just buying into it. I used to be a mechanic in the 70s and cars are more like computers now. I could change parts if i knew enough to diagnose properly. From my research it seems some diagnostic data need interpretation too. Some things will be obvious from the data for sure. Even with my basic OBD scanner I had to look up codes relating to LONGTRM_FT and what a typical reading or range should be expected. There are many others. If I had a DTC or dash light on It would have simplified the whole thing but there are none. Just a symptom of something wrong.

A good number of scanner YT videos .. (and i have watched many) revolve around switching on features... or making them stop. I'm not into that so much and I suspect you could do a lot of damage with that kind of coding too...

I just need some tuition first. There are probably courses out there LOL

It might yet happen... :)
RUM4MO
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by RUM4MO »

grazuncle2 wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 2:22 pm
Thanks for the reply

I have looked at more advanced diagnostic OBD scanners and considering the charge to 'just look' at vehicles today, they seem a bargain. I have looked at many YT videos... principally OBD Eleven.. and whilst they do do a lot of stuff; knowing what to do with the information is not as straightforward as just buying into it. I used to be a mechanic in the 70s and cars are more like computers now. I could change parts if i knew enough to diagnose properly. From my research it seems some diagnostic data need interpretation too. Some things will be obvious from the data for sure. Even with my basic OBD scanner I had to look up codes relating to LONGTRM_FT and what a typical reading or range should be expected. There are many others. If I had a DTC or dash light on It would have simplified the whole thing but there are none. Just a symptom of something wrong.

A good number of scanner YT videos .. (and i have watched many) revolve around switching on features... or making them stop. I'm not into that so much and I suspect you could do a lot of damage with that kind of coding too...

I just need some tuition first. There are probably courses out there LOL

It might yet happen... :)
Yes, as you know just going out and buying a fully loaded tool storage system does not immediately turn you into a functioning mechanic from previously knowing nothing, same for buying a good scan tool, but types like VCDS are safe to use, which is probably more than you can say for the "one key strike" ones that allow a complete non-mechanic to make changes.
What prompted to initially buy VCDS from a proper UK based re-seller was, I had ordered a new VW Passat 4Motion 2.8V6 from a car broker in Holland, called Intercar, they seem to have vanished after many years sourcing tax free cars for mainly USA and UK forces personnel based in Europe - you just paid your local VAT after you reg'd the car, in my case, in UK. So big saving could be made if you could be bothered making the effort, as well as saving a small fortune on factory fitted extras as you were paying VW AG prices and not greedy VW UK prices for that stuff, okay VW UK is now owned by VW AG but they left the big mark up on factory fitted options as people were and are still, willing to pay them. So, back in May 2000 I paid just under £20000 including all associated travel costs and buying a correct Gamma radio instead of handing over £24575 to my local VW dealer - okay I had to wait 9 months until it appeared as VW AG do try to slow deliveries to dealers that are selling to someone outside their own sales area, and sell my own car privately, but that suited me at the time.
Anyway, I quickly discovered that this car, well during the first long winter journey, that the low washer warning had not been coded in, and while sorting that out I discovered that the brake wear warning was also not coded in, VW AG do like to mess up people importing their own car instead of using their local dealer! So, I approached my local VW dealer and explained what my issue was, where I had bought my car from and what I wanted them to do for me - at my own cost, their answer was that internet motoring forums just talk rubbish, the only way to get the low washer fluid warning active, was to allow them to order in a new instrument panel, price roughly £250, then they would need to code it for that exact car roughly £100 and swop the instrument panels over roughly another £100 - all January 2001 prices from my local VW main dealership! As I had been reading about VCDS, and its price back then was under £200, I dived in and bought VCDS, and having read hints/tips on the internet, spent only 10 minutes putting it to use for the first time, switching on the low washer fluid warning, discovering that the brake wear warning was also not switched on, and sorted out that issue - and correctly coded the VW Gamma radio/cassette player for that version of VW.
One nasty/naughty "thing" about most VW Group cars of that period in time was, that they did not have "bulb failure warning" built in, so when a brake light bulb went "pop" the car would log a fault and typically the unfortunate owner would hand it in, so needed a scan, a new bulb and the logged faults cleared! Similarly for the many badly designed brake pedal switch for the brake lights that failed, many panel lights would get switched on costing some people quite a bit of money to get resolved - VCDS owners just needed to plug in and check to see what was being reported.
MikeDO
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by MikeDO »

RUM4MO wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:51 pm
MikeDO wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 6:12 pm Sorry to hear this :(
Typical response from a main dealer in my experience sadly!

Even though my car is only some 6 months old, this is why I'm hesitating now about taking my car in for the intermittent (and very annoying) "Travel Assist currently unavailable" message that keeps on popping up for no apparent reason!!!
A dozen times in only a couple of miles journey this morning, then no sign of it when I take the car out in the afternoon.

I'll be interested to hear how you get on.

Good luck. Think you might need it.
Depending on how you use your car, the battery might be low on charge in the morning after a cold start, have you ever considered connecting it up to a smart charger overnight just to see if improving the battery charge stops this happening in the morning?
Good thought.

But the car gets used regularly (decent length journeys). Plus being somewhat old fashioned, I still (at least during the winter months) hook the battery up to my CTek Smart charger on a Sunday morning.

My fault sadly is completely random. Sometimes it can go days without a problem, then the next day I get an insane number of warning messages about the Travel Assist (clear/clean sensors, decent day).
I can see no real pattern to the warning messages (sometimes all day, sometime just the morning or afternoon, sometimes not at all)
I'd better not de-rail the OP's posts to much. I have a separate thread going on in the forum regarding my issue.
grazuncle2
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by grazuncle2 »

RUM4MO wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 5:11 pm
grazuncle2 wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 2:22 pm
Thanks for the reply

I have looked at more advanced diagnostic OBD scanners and considering the charge to 'just look' at vehicles today, they seem a bargain. I have looked at many YT videos... principally OBD Eleven.. and whilst they do do a lot of stuff; knowing what to do with the information is not as straightforward as just buying into it. I used to be a mechanic in the 70s and cars are more like computers now. I could change parts if i knew enough to diagnose properly. From my research it seems some diagnostic data need interpretation too. Some things will be obvious from the data for sure. Even with my basic OBD scanner I had to look up codes relating to LONGTRM_FT and what a typical reading or range should be expected. There are many others. If I had a DTC or dash light on It would have simplified the whole thing but there are none. Just a symptom of something wrong.

A good number of scanner YT videos .. (and i have watched many) revolve around switching on features... or making them stop. I'm not into that so much and I suspect you could do a lot of damage with that kind of coding too...

I just need some tuition first. There are probably courses out there LOL

It might yet happen... :)
Yes, as you know just going out and buying a fully loaded tool storage system does not immediately turn you into a functioning mechanic from previously knowing nothing, same for buying a good scan tool, but types like VCDS are safe to use, which is probably more than you can say for the "one key strike" ones that allow a complete non-mechanic to make changes.
What prompted to initially buy VCDS from a proper UK based re-seller was, I had ordered a new VW Passat 4Motion 2.8V6 from a car broker in Holland, called Intercar, they seem to have vanished after many years sourcing tax free cars for mainly USA and UK forces personnel based in Europe - you just paid your local VAT after you reg'd the car, in my case, in UK. So big saving could be made if you could be bothered making the effort, as well as saving a small fortune on factory fitted extras as you were paying VW AG prices and not greedy VW UK prices for that stuff, okay VW UK is now owned by VW AG but they left the big mark up on factory fitted options as people were and are still, willing to pay them. So, back in May 2000 I paid just under £20000 including all associated travel costs and buying a correct Gamma radio instead of handing over £24575 to my local VW dealer - okay I had to wait 9 months until it appeared as VW AG do try to slow deliveries to dealers that are selling to someone outside their own sales area, and sell my own car privately, but that suited me at the time.
Anyway, I quickly discovered that this car, well during the first long winter journey, that the low washer warning had not been coded in, and while sorting that out I discovered that the brake wear warning was also not coded in, VW AG do like to mess up people importing their own car instead of using their local dealer! So, I approached my local VW dealer and explained what my issue was, where I had bought my car from and what I wanted them to do for me - at my own cost, their answer was that internet motoring forums just talk rubbish, the only way to get the low washer fluid warning active, was to allow them to order in a new instrument panel, price roughly £250, then they would need to code it for that exact car roughly £100 and swop the instrument panels over roughly another £100 - all January 2001 prices from my local VW main dealership! As I had been reading about VCDS, and its price back then was under £200, I dived in and bought VCDS, and having read hints/tips on the internet, spent only 10 minutes putting it to use for the first time, switching on the low washer fluid warning, discovering that the brake wear warning was also not switched on, and sorted out that issue - and correctly coded the VW Gamma radio/cassette player for that version of VW.
One nasty/naughty "thing" about most VW Group cars of that period in time was, that they did not have "bulb failure warning" built in, so when a brake light bulb went "pop" the car would log a fault and typically the unfortunate owner would hand it in, so needed a scan, a new bulb and the logged faults cleared! Similarly for the many badly designed brake pedal switch for the brake lights that failed, many panel lights would get switched on costing some people quite a bit of money to get resolved - VCDS owners just needed to plug in and check to see what was being reported.
I haven't written the idea off of getting a better scanner, at all..

I personally could toss a coin in the air as to predict what the garage will 'find' with my car and who to charge (insurance or me) If it's me and I could have done something, with the right knowledge id be grieved to pay it. If they put their hands up and acknowledge it is under warranty I be happier obviously. If I could see into the future...LOL

I will at some point in the future change the car's battery and I know you have to register the new battery or the car won't know and won't properly. I'd rather get my own choice of battery (larger than stock, cheaper and register it myself without VW garage charges.. no idea what they charge but the battery from them won't be inexpensive that's for sure.

I'm between a rock and a hard place.. :roll:
RUM4MO
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by RUM4MO »

Yes I was "lucky" that I found a need to justify buying VCDS early on in my term of running VW Group cars, I'm not sure when or if I would have justified that purchase to my self without that early need to.

My wife's August 2015 Polo 1.2TSI 110PS SEL, has still, at 7 years and 8 months - and 43K miles, its original EFB battery, which maybe surprisingly, still returns good health values (CCA) when tested 8 hours after having an overnight re-charge using a CTEK smart charger. Unfortunately, I prepared for an early death of that battery and have a new AGM "next size up" waiting for its time, along with a bigger battery tray and insulating sleeve! At the start of first lockdown I started using a CTEK charger that I had bought a few years earlier to keep the AGM battery in my "garage queen" in good health, using that probably explains when the 2015 Polo still has its original battery.

My earlier comment/posting about charging batteries or questioning car use was aimed at the other poster with the Polo GTI showing some system problems only after a cold start.

I've coded a new battery in to my own other car, and a friends car where a garage didn't bother to do that after a battery change. Other things I've used VCDS for to enable TPMS in my car and code in front parking sensors in my car after retrofitting them as per factory fit. I'm planning on replacing the Haldex fluid and clean the pump screen on my older daughter's 2019 SEAT Leon Cupra' front diff - and VCDS comes in useful when carrying out that job.

I just wish that I had the enthusiasm to log/record all typical values on all controllers so that I could see any changes when things started to go wrong, ie be aware of everything possible - but so far, that is just a "must do" or idle talk!
grazuncle2
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by grazuncle2 »

I think you justified you purchase very well.

I'm wondering if there's a half way house for what i need a good scanner for
I wouldn't buy something that didn't allow registering a battery

I just don't know if it is all or nothing regarding what i need.
More research needed
RUM4MO
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by RUM4MO »

It could be a tricky one to work out, the "business model" of most if not all these proper scan tools changed a few years ago, and I can see why, originally, for instance VCDS came "unlimited" and so a small garage which could earn a lot of money out of using it, paid the same as a home DIYer looking after 2 cars, so they changed how/what they sold to being "3 VIN" limited for home DIYers etc, although you can do quite a lot without "using up" a VIN, but certainly do adaptions which battery coding is. Next came the "10 VIN" probably for home DIYers that worked on more cars, and finally the "unlimited VIN" which is what small garages would buy.
You can "recharge" or "refresh" the cheaper/lower use versions but usually that costs quite a bit of money which is fair enough, unfortunately for me, I seemed to miss out of a "special birthday deal" - maybe on VCDS's 20th birthday, where I could have converted my "10VIN" to "unlimited VIN" - but such is life!
When you know quite a few people that run VW Group cars, in the past it was easy enough to just reset service indicator or clear logged faults at no cost to you other than time, now with this new business model, I am just not willing to do that as to me each "use" of a VIN equates to maybe £40 - so very few people are willing to pay me that sort of money to help them. That cost obviously varies as in, if I think that I'm running my last ever VW Group and I use up my last VIN helping someone, that cost would be maybe £40, but if I know that I'll continue buying and running more VW Group cars, then I would have put myself in the position that I needed to buy a new "10 VIN" allowance - so that single generous use of my last VIN of the initial buy would cost me serious money.

As usual, with something that needs continual updating, there is no free lunch.

Maybe as you already know, VCDS and maybe other scan tools can be sold on, but I think that you need to paid a chunk of money to change legal ownership so that you can benefit from RossTech support and be in a position to buy a new VIN allowance if necessary. Just be very careful that if you go down this road that it is a genuine version of VCDS that you are buying.
grazuncle2
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by grazuncle2 »

Thanks for replying.

I fully understand what you are saying... I wouldn't pay $40 for a reset or 'waste a VIN' myself either.

I am getting 'somewhere I think with data from my 'reader' only OBD scanner. Again it is the reference figures I'm short of hence my asking for another members scan data here in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=78317

Someone has already offered to run a scan on their Polo's Throttle Position (TP_B) entry later this evening and at least I'll have a reference figure to work with :)
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Re: reality shock - diagnostic charges

Post by dazz »

Hi
I have also been stung by the cost of dealer downloading my data on my car. I only have one VW. I do all my own car maintenance but I need a scanner for the VW. I am not particularly interested in changing optional settings. Basically I just want to run diagnostics and calibration type things.
There are lots of recommendations on-line for "the best scanner". I don't need the best. I just need something good enough.
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