Noisy cam phasers on startup (1.8TSi 6C GTi)

[Bepis]

Occasionally I get a tapping noise on startup from the engine which I can only assume is the cam phasers as it’s a very light tap that eventually goes away.

However this tapping at startup is becoming more frequent and sometimes won’t go until I bring the revs up for 5-10 seconds to build some more oil pressure.

I got this noise with both 5w30 and 5w40 but it mainly happens on cold start so shouldn’t really be a factor. The noise didn’t happen for some time after performing an oil flush so I’m coming to the conclusion that the cam phasers or more specifically the cam phaser bolt/oil inlet isn’t working properly or is gummed up even with oil changes every 5K.

I have no drivability issues or warnings and the cam adjustment value is almost rock solid and doesn’t waver massively like those who have worn out cam phasers. But a tapping noise from an engine is always of concern.

I don’t believe it’s chain stretch but I can’t find a definite way to measure on this version of the EA888 with VVT on the intake and exhaust using VCDS.

The other issue is with the phaser bolts(06L109257D). The current reversion I believe is F and I believe I have revision D fitted according to the VIN split around 2016. Looking at the two online it seems in VWs infinite wisdom they’ve changed the design of the part meaning if you needed to replace revision D you’d need to change your whole cam shaft as well as revision F isn't compatible.

After looking online it seems there are 2 oil screens in the system. One in the cam bridge itself and one in each phaser bolt.

My questions are:
How can I narrow down the source of the noise?
Is it possible to just clean the cam phaser bolts? Ultrasonic cleaner, brake cleaner, degreaser etc?
Do INA still make the revision D cam bolts as everywhere says out of stock?
Is it likely that at 66k miles the oil screen in the cam bridge has become dislodged?

I’ll try and get a video of the noise to reference later today.

Edit: Looks like autodoc have restocked the phaser bolts however they list the other revisions under the compatible part numbers. The picture looks like the correct style but listing the revised part numbers makes me unsure. https://autodoc.co.uk/ina/18264135

Edit 2: it seems the agreed term for the cam phaser bolts are “spool valves” VW seem to refer to them as “control valves” also.

[Bepis]

After some digging, it seems there are both revisions F and revision H available from VW. With the VIN split being in 2016 my car came with revision D which I'll need to confirm by having a look after taking a cam magnet off. Revision D was superseded by G and now H from what I can find with H being vastly different to D.

There also seems to be some difference in width 20mm vs 21mm in prior revisions to H but they seem to be determined by the holes for the socket to engage with. It seems to be centred = 20mm and offset is 21mm.

I need to look into it a bit more but will post my findings.

[alexperkins]

06L109257D has been replaced with 06L109257G - £68ish from the Dealer TPS.

[Bepis]

I'll ring my local dealer again at some point as they informed me they could only get 06L109257H.

I've ordered a pair of INA items (INA 427 0058 10) which I believe were the OEM at £48 each plus £8 delivery from autodoc which will be here either tomorrow or Monday.

The only concern is that they list rev D G and H as compatible part numbers. If they aren't correct I can always return them and then try and get rev G from the dealer or TPS.

For reference by others, my March 2017 built engine has rev D as per the vin split

[alexperkins]

H isn’t compatible. Not sure who gave you that info

I pulled this straight out the parts system and also double checked it with TPS when I was in there earlier

G is available next day

[Bepis]

Sounds good, I think my nearest TPS that deals with the public is Chester if not I can try to get my mechanic to source them for me.

I knew rev H wasn't compatible and would require a new cam which I wasn't even going to entertain until it actually started causing misfires and rough running. It's all they told me they could get.

I've got to wait until the parcel from autodoc turns up to return it anyway so will post a picture of the item I receive as the catalog pictures seem to show rev D but as mentioned they list rev H as well under the same part.

[alexperkins]

Sadly a lot of these parts departments are very unhelpful at most of the main dealers. It’s incredibly frustrating!

[Bepis]

Forgot to update this topic

The INA part is revision H so will obviously not fit. I'll include some pictures of the INA part for reference by others.

On the other hand, after removing the magnet for the intake cam I found the pin was a little stuck but freed itself up once I gave it some encouragement and now rocking it back and forth it moves with no effort as it should. This also seems to have corresponded with the rattle after cold start not happening for some time. I'll give it a while to see if the noise returns.

I now, however, have some oil misting coming from the PCV hose and one of the "Audi Valve Lift" solenoids on the exhaust cam to sort instead

I guess there are still PCV issues even with revision BL fitted

Also, for anyone looking for some sockets for the spool valves, BGS 8565 has the two different styles, offset and centered.

[Bepis]

Well after a lot of back and forth with various parts counters at various dealers and TPS, I've given up trying to get an OE part. Some TPS locations still have revision G in stock but won't sell it to me, some dealers cannot get G at all, and those that can, can't do a stock transfer from TPS due to the part being superseded.

So I went back to Autodoc and got the Febi part as it was in stock now. It specifically doesn't list H under its compatible part numbers only D and G. They arrived and seem to be the correct part. The same centered holes for the T10352/4 socket and the open-end cap, unlike H. The part number is 182093 and around £40 plus delivery.

Haven't done the job just yet as I remember my solenoids were initially stuck and then weren't very free moving when I originally took them off to inspect which valve I had fitted so currently waiting on 2 INA parts from autodoc. £25 each plus delivery, £74 each from VW, and FCP Euro list INA as the OE for that part.

Video of a stuck/sticky solenoid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OgwRqoWJ4g

Also turns out there are 5 different sockets for these valves, The original 2 I bought the "correct one" didn't fit so just bought a set that had all 5, BGS 70112 £22~:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BG31FLWV? ... ct_details

T10352/4 fit the febi part, hopefully it fits what's on the car.

Pictures of the part and what T10352 fits what engine:

[alexperkins]

Sounds like a result even though it’s been a right faff

[Bepis]

Oh it has been one hell of a faff but will hopefully be worth it in the end. Worryingly many places weren't aware of the incompatibility of revision H in engines that came with D or G.

My slightly dodgy cold start has started to become more frequent as well so hopefully, I will have caught it in time to prevent further issues.

However, after all of this, I still can't understand how VW managed to do something so utterly stupid. The new design is better in the fact that the end cap will stop the clip going through the camshaft if it comes away but to make it in such a way that means it doesn't fit the existing part and rather than giving it a new part number, making it a revision and stop manufacturing the old design is unbelievable.

So when this Febi part is no longer made anymore and no other aftermarket option is available you could be looking at thousands of pounds to replace camshafts and the labor to do so all for a £40-£70 part? The EA888 series of engines isn't exactly rare so hopefully most of them were fitted with revision F that's still available.

I'll update the thread once I've got the new valves and solenoids fitted.

[ciclo]

I’ll try and get a video of the noise to reference later today.

I think the following video seems interesting for this post, I think it is worth watching in full.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWr0fpQVv20

I wish you the best of luck Bepis.

[Bepis]

Yes, that was the video that tipped me off to the noise being of more concern than I originally thought.

I did the job last weekend and have been driving for a week and so far so good. I still get the rattling occasionally after cold start but not as frequently so when I eventually get the timing chains done I'll have them look to see if the screen filters in the cam phaser bridge are still there. I couldn't see any remnants down each of the cams so hopefully they're still there.

Now onto the job itself...

TLDR: Febi 182093 fits Rev D and G spool valves. Due to the lack of space in the polo engine bay, the exhaust cam is a pig to do. Test everything before you fit it, just because it's new doesn't mean it works. If the spool valve moves and returns, the screen filter within it is still intact and not gummed up and the spool valve itself is intact it probably doesn't need changing. After the job, my low-end torque is back 1800-2200 RPM is no longer dead, throttle response seems to be improved and my MPG is back .

The first point to make which is very important. The vast majority of torque wrenches are not bidirectional. Even though they have a ratchet where you can change the direction they will only function as a torque wrench when tightening (turning clockwise). Luckily the thought came into my head while trying to get the new spool valve to torque up and I thought this is a lot of force for 35nm. Tried "35nm" on a lug nut and it broke loose before clicking A snapped spool valve or a stripped thread in the cam won't be fun or cheap.

Luckily the Teng torque wrench I was using the ratchet face was the same size front and back, so I took it out and flipped it around, hey presto I now had a torque wrench that could do reverse threads

Also, test your new parts. You can test the solenoids by plugging them in and resting them on the engine. Then use your diagnostic tool of choice and run an output test on each of the solenoids. You should see them retract and extend freely. To check the spool valves, push on the valve with a small screwdriver and ensure it pushes in smoothly and returns.

Back to starting the job.

I put my car in 6th so I couldn't turn the engine over just in case.

The solenoids that actuate the valves are held in with 3 T30s, start with the intake solenoid as removing it gives more access to the one on the exhaust cam.

Removal is simple enough, disconnect the wiring, undo 3 T30s and prise the solenoid out. Space is very limited so I had to use a 1/4" ratchet. The solenoids also push into an o-ring in the cam bridge, I had all my upper timing cover seals replaced within the last few months after 2 of them blew out due to a faulty PCV so I didn't replace them. However, they're only a couple of quid so worth changing if they've not been done. Part number WHT007212B. If they're leaking you'll get an oily residue around the solenoid and or the bolts that hold them in.

To prise it off I just used two small flatheads to work it off enough until I could grip it with my hand and then pulled it straight back. Just be wary of the cam phaser bridge to upper timing covers seals if you're sticking something in to get them started. There will be some oil behind these so shove some paper towel or a rag down between the engine mount bracket and upper timing cover.

I can't really give a solid method to get the bolts out of the exhaust cam solenoids as the aircon lines, fuel feed, and fuel tank vent lines are just in the way no matter what you do. Just do what you find works for you. I ended up with the same 1/4" ratchet with 2 small extensions with a flexi joint in the middle which I had going in between the airocn lines to get to the bolt at the back.

With the solenoids off, they were both still sticking when fully retracted but would then move with a little resistance.

Now for the spool valve. For rev D and G it seems the correct socket is T10352/4 and I guess rev F is T10352/2.

Spool valve removal.JPG (39.95 KiB) Viewed 2668 times

I'm not sure if it was the sockets I bought but all it wants to do is jump out of the holes on the valve. So use your left hand to apply a decent amount of force pushing the socket into the valve to keep it seated. They take some effort to break loose but once they are it's a very fine thread so can undo it by hand from that point. Once loose, they won't just fall out you'll need to get a pick or something of the sort behind the shoulder just to pull it out so you can then use your hand to get it out the rest of the way. There is more oil behind the valve so make sure the rag is still there from when you removed the solenoid.

Now for re-assembly.

I can't stress this enough. Ensure that your torque wrench actually works turning anti-clockwise. I soaked the end of the valves with some engine oil but not the threads before putting them back in. Do the intake valve first as it's the easiest to do and allows you to get a feel for what to do. Once the intake cam valve is in don't put the solenoid back yet as you'll need the extra access again for the exhaust solenoid.

Timing valve torque.JPG (21.58 KiB) Viewed 2668 times

Once the valves are back in, clean up the engine oil that's pooled up and use it to moisten the O-rings for the solenoids. Put some on the outer ring of the solenoid itself as well as it makes pushing the solenoid into the o-ring much easier.

When pushing the solenoid back in make sure to push it in straight and evenly. With the o-ring and outer surface oiled, they push in very easily. Line up the holes on the cam bridge and solenoid as best as you can.

Once in, partially put 2 of the bolts in to line up the final hole then tighten them all up evenly. Now the torque spec is only 9nm but there is an oil seal in there so you want even pressure. I had a torque wrench that could go down to 9nm so I used it.

Solenoid bolts.JPG (10.17 KiB) Viewed 2668 times

Now plug the solenoids back in and ensure the tabs on the connectors are pushed back into their locked position.

First start

Now I may have been gone a little OTT but I didn't want to chance anything going wrong so I disconnected the coil packs and cranked the engine over for a good 15-20 seconds to get a decent amount of oil pressure up to the cams.

Now for the first start, I connected up my VCDS to monitor the camshaft adjustment. All was well on cold start, exhaust specified advanced 30°exhaust actual 30° rock solid, intake specified and actual 0°. Then when cold start ended the car started shaking pretty badly. Exhaust specified and actual 4°, intake specified 15° actual 0°

I decided to try running the intake and exhaust camshaft adjustment valve basic setting. Exhaust passed, intake failed and set a P0011, Retard set point not Reached (Over Advanced). Once that code is set the ECU seems to no longer try to control the valves as both specified values went to 0°.

Failed basic setting

Failed Basic Setting e.jpg (432.24 KiB) Viewed 2668 times

Logged P0011 fault

Fault e.jpg (653.57 KiB) Viewed 2668 times

Intake cam not adjusting

Dodgy valve e.jpg (636.22 KiB) Viewed 2668 times

Diagnosis

Luckily the fault was on the intake cam so the easiest of the two to work on.

I started with doing an output test of the solenoids as there was no movement at all so assumed the new intake solenoid to be dead. Exhaust solenoid had a rhythmic clicking, intake had nothing. To confirm it wasn't a wiring fault I plugged an old solenoid into the intake harness and let it rest on top of the engine cover and ran the test again. The old solenoid moved so not a wiring fault.

I removed the intake solenoid and confirmed it was moving, ran the output test and the new solenoid moved freely. So confused I decided just to push on the spool valve with a screwdriver and it was stuck solid. No movement whatsoever. Removed the valve and there wasn't anything obviously wrong with it but it didn't move at all. So put the old valve back in after cleaning it up a bit, confirmed it moved and returned after torquing it up so re assenmbled and tried again.

Timing valve check.JPG (35.71 KiB) Viewed 2668 times

First start take 2

As the old valve was still somewhat primed with oil I didn't bother building oil pressure before starting this time. The start was much smoother and no shaking. I still watched the live data, cold start was still rock solid 30° on the exhaust, once cold start finished the intake specified and actual was 15° and rock solid.

Let the engine warm up for a bit and ran both intake and exhaust basic settings, both of which passed first time

Working valves

Good valve e.jpg (516.77 KiB) Viewed 2668 times

Outcome

End of cold start rattle is less frequent, so now suspect an issue somewhere else in the timing circuit. Exhaust phaser is compensating 2.6-3° so chain stretch limit is close being +-5°. Adjustment values are rock-solid so don't suspect the oil is bypassing the seals in the phaser but is rather an initial oil supply issue when the phasers unlock.
Engine revs more freely when in neutral.
Low-end torque is back, 1800-2200 RPM is no longer a dead zone.
Throttle response is mildly improved.
MPG is back up to the mid 40s when cruising at motorway speeds. For that past year, I had to try very hard to get over 40mpg now I can set cruise control at 74mph and get 44mpg plus without trying. A few times have neared 50mpg when in average 50 limits or heavy traffic averaging 50-60mph.
It seems that my fault was mainly caused by the sticking solenoids unless the old valve in the intake cam is the cause of the ticking after cold start. Will update when the replacement arrives and is fitted.

Overall happy with the outcome but what looked like a straightforward job was a right pain in the backside doing it for the first time.

Hopefully, that encyclopedia amount of text and the rest of the thread was of use to you

[ciclo]

Thank you very much for this brilliant report and those small/super details at work/diagnostic, they will undoubtedly help those who have to face the same problem in a POLO (with reduced workspace) for the first time.

We look forward to seeing what happens or how your GTI improves even further once the replacement is complete.

[Bepis]

Just updating this topic after having the new spool valves and solenoids fitted for some time now.

The cold start rattle from the cam phasers is 99% gone so fairly certain my rattling was caused by the intake side spool valve as the ticking persisted while I waited for the replacement valve to arrive.

It no longer happens on a cold start but it can still happen if the engine is stopped shortly after cold start and the phasers unlocked in that time. On the restart, the same rattle is there but quickly subsides unlike before.

Now onto the clutch and the rest of the front-end suspension work